The point I'm making is not difficult. When an SF goes for sale they cannot say Ferrari made less than F12 as its decidedly not true. When you start qualifying what nation and during what time frame than you can start qualifying what state or what city. None of these cars are numbered LEs. It doesn't matter. No one buying an F12 or SF is doing so because of rarity of one versus the other. The SF value is impacted by F167 and the F12 is not. The SF realistically has a lot more to drop. Should not get into these cars as investment either.
I don't know how you came to these numbers, but there about 1200 812 SF for north amercia (USA+Canada) and about 1250 F12 for the same markets. So not a big delta.
I have previously found about 2200 F12 for USA: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/147024072/ (with USA and EU production being roughly equal) # # # however, based on this: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/148493508/ it looks like 1500 F12 for USA # # # however, based on this: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/145620666/ it is written about the F12B Total production is close to 8'700 units, not 7'000. # # # so, of all that insight linked above, I believe @Marcel Massini is most accurate and based on that, with 2112 F12B being sold (new) in EU (per car sales base website), I think the total USA production close to 2200 is most likely. # # # So, where did you obtain your numbers? (1200 of the 812SF for USA is unlikely since through June 2020, confirmed by Ferrari itself, only 1063 were produced for USA, and only a very few produced after, I believe it is fewer than 1100 of the 812SF for USA)
Whether it’s 1200 or 2200 made the effect on residual value in 25 years will be nil. Ultimately it will be based on how many are for sale on the open market vs potential buyers and does either car have a certain something to make it a desirable classic car. Those are hard to predict. Buy what you like and what matters to you most and enjoy it. Both cars are meant to be driven and not sequestered in some climate controlled space for decades. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
When Marcel said 8700 he was correcting someone who was quoting the total number of all Ferraris made annually during that time, not the total number of F12's made over the production time span. The most thorough analysis I've seen of total F12 production was based on the recorded total European sales of 2068 to 2112 and extrapolating from there to about 4500-4600 worldwide produced total. Then again it's all academic, since in the end it's the desirability weighed against the availability that matters.
4500-4600 is the « correct » number, even though it’s even a bit higher. Worldwide and only f12berlinetta, no F12tdf. 812SF is around 5000 and 812GTS has reached 4400-4500 and production is not over. We will see in the future years how many 812 replacement will be produced. There will be the Purosangue on the V12 assembly line, so not a full line for the 812 replacement. We’ll see !
Wouldnt the 812 replacement arrive on the assembly line after the V12 PS production is over though? BTW, how does it work when a platform can have various drive train, like the Lusso and LussoT. Are they assembled on different lines? I guess not as it wouldnt make any sense...
I spoke to someone high up in Ferrari last weekend and he said he thought it would not be coming out this year.
What will the brand new Ferrari F167 be looking as a Berlinetta and GTS version? I've made a picture comparison between the Spider and Berlinetta variants of the 812 and the 296: It is noticeable that the difference between the Spider and the Berlinetta in the 812 is much bigger than on the 296 (pay attention to the elements I have marked in blue on the 812 GTS and 812 Superfast). The rear window of the 812 GTS is small and vertical, whereas on 812 Superfast, it is sloping and very large. There are also clear differences when viewed from the side. No Wonder: The 812 GTS was much later developed than the 812 Superfast (and you can see that). With the Ferrari 296, on the other hand, the differences between the GTB and GTS version are very small: These vehicles were developed almost simultaneously and the designers wanted to maintain the lines of the GTB in the GTS (and did it very similar with the SF90 Stradale and SF90 Spider). So again: What will the new Ferrari F167 be looking as a Berlinetta and GTS version? Are there such big differences as in the 812 GTS/SF or will the differences be kept very small (similar to the 296 GTB/GTS or SF90 Stradale/SF90 Spider)? The rear window could play a role in this. Maybe day355 can tell us if the rear window on the F167 Berlinetta is sloping or vertical, big or small. And (according to day355) the roof will cause discussions anyway... Image Unavailable, Please Login
As far as I know new project 167 will be like a Roma but bigger with more muscles . It will have a 12V with an hybrid solution . I think after few years there will be a spider version similar to Roma spider shown today . It will depend on the success Roma spider will have
I’ve owned I’ve owned both cars. They are both incredible. But the 812 is a ridiculously perfect car. I do not see how the F12 overtakes it in value.
@TheBlueCarbon36 wanted to know if we think the replacement 812 GTS (if they make one—- which, I think the answer is very likely!) will be a folding hard top like the 812 GTS or a soft top like the new Roma Spider? My own guess is - yes, they will do the soft top. I think it gives them more styling flexibility. Between a folding hard top and folding soft top, I like the greater sense of security the hard top provides. But, at least on the folding hard top cars Ive had so far (GTS on order) when I go over larger bumps, like expansion joints on the highway, the top can jostle thus it makes a very not secure type sound. Its really an opposite of secure feeling. However, if you have only smooth roads then this is not an issue. I would imagine a soft top is more flexible and thus, when the structure does scuttle a little, you won’t be aware of it via the top moving around. Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat
I’ve been through 3 generations of Ferrari folding hard tops-458, 488 and 812GTS(with an SF just before it) and they became more rigid. The GTS is solid as a rock which considering New Yorks pothole ridden streets is quite an accomplishment. The last soft top I had was an AMG GT spider- just as solid but more claustrophobic (go figure)than the GTS. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
I guess none of you have rolled over; I have. I hate open top cars anyway, but the idea of going fast without a solid roof terrifies me.
Let’s come back to this March 18 2025.. so many things will go the F12 way once F167 is released. and no I don’t own a F12, but I will pony up for the right one
I don't know what to make of that? Are you indicating the F12 will be preferred to the F167? Or, maybe, the design of the F167 will make everyone 'forget' the 812 and only think of the F12? Or the F167 will be so expensive that everyone will want an F12 at half/third the price ? Or an F12 in the garage will be required to order an F167? Something else?
I rolled a pickup years ago. Not sure why I survived. And that was actually going kinda slow. Anyhow, not sure the roof will help much in a high speed rollover. I love open top driving. Not as much as i like riding a bike, but it is safer... Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
Yup. Going over 130 mph in a convertible always made me pucker. Of course false security when I drove my SL 55 when compared to my 360 spider. The 812 trade-ins for the 167 may hurt residual values on the 812 secondary market, but not the big tank in values the previous 12s had. It certainly won't inflate F12 values any. Certainly not like the whole craziness of the past few years. <- that is the only bump I see the F12 will have. Not a roll over, but hydroplaned, skidded across the median and got hit by an 18 wheeler head on/tailgate on as I was skidding backwards at 70 mph, the impact spun me back across the highway into the median in front of another 18 wheeler. In the end, the bed was taller than the cab. Oh, and a plane crash too. I guess God and the devil never finished playing rock, paper, scissors with me. Oh well at least my wife wants me........I think.....
I’m perfectly content now with my pair of 12s. Best weekend sports car and best daily GT. Nothing out there I want now anyway. Getting soft in my old age and kinda bored- been there, done that as I get close to the bottom of the bucket list. I guess the curse of a life well lived. Image Unavailable, Please Login ps 9 Sept, 2007. Image Unavailable, Please Login Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat