New MANUAL TRANSMISSION Ferraris-Doug Demuro

Vastly smarter choice than that POS 3.5 liter V8 they were using. Those blew up so routinely that they had a mountain of blown up warranty engines in their wherehouse in Atlanta they were parting out to do warranty repairs on the ones still running.

 

That is a statement that has been said over and over and over in different ways since before the turn of the century. In that same time Ferrari has grown substantially as have their profits.

 

I have a test for everyone here. Do you know why Daytona Spiders are so valuable? In such demand? Because so few were built.

Do you know why so few were built? No one wanted them. The dealer I worked in traded off our Daytona Spider to another dealer for a Coupe because no one wanted it and the other dealer finally found someone who did. Those were built in very small numbers yet we could not give them away and now look what one is worth. New buyers wanted coupes because they were the serious performance model. Hmm kind of like a DCT equipped car huh?

288s were built in very small numbers. I had a client that had a friend at the factory and bought his directly from Ferrari and picked it up in Maranello. He said they still had 8 sitting there and dealers were not taking them. Ferrari offered him all 8 at dealer cost. He turned them down. They were not an expensive car.

People claim to want stick shifts. No one bought them when they were available. Guess what happens if they went back into production.

Everybody wants what they cannot get.

 

When your brand is a huge part of your business's value, you need to protect it. You only need to look at post #114 to know that customers want that option. Ignoring the desires of significant percentage of customers -- when those desires are rational and trivially easy to provide -- is a really bad idea. Ferrari has not been at the top of motorsport for a while, so their brand is skating on history -- it's not really the time to be doing things that work against customer desires.

The value of any brand is pretty fickle -- a business should never take it for granted. Armani was on top of the world in fashion forever, then almost overnight Armani became nearly irrelevant. Armani didn't even do anything wrong, that's just the way it is. I'm not predicting or suggesting that Ferrari will fall because they don't offer manuals, but it's a stupid display of hubris ("I know better than the customers") that isn't the smartest thing to do when your brand -- its #1 asset -- is skating on mostly distant history.

 

Ah, does this mean you won't have time to work on my Jensen Healey?

 

I believe the last Daytona Spider was sold to a guy named Walt Something in SoCal. Sold is not the correct verb. Ferrari delivered the car to his house unannounced.

 

How long you been in the Ferrari business?

I have been having this same conversation for over 20 years and I expect I'll still be having it when I die.

 

Willie Brown had a Testarossa. I worked on it a couple of times. There was no record that car was ever sold to anyone.

 

To be fair, nobody has enough time to fully fix a Jensen Healey

 

Back when the sun didn't shine so bright, there was a lot of unrecorded movement in Ferraris from less-friendly countries to the US. The paperwork got a bit fuzzy on some of those deals.

 

Are you suggesting the real life demonstrable sales failures of the last of the stick shift cars, Daytona Spiders or the lack of interest in 288s when produced didn't happen?


288 was a special car, cost less than a Testarossa and still did not sell .


There is some overlap but in general Porsche attracts a very different customer base. Hypotheticals are an interesting exercise but really prove little if anything.

 

Car was a US model from FNA.

 

You are cherry-picking two models that didn't sell well, from a era when (virtually) all Ferraris were manual, to demonstrate that people don't want manual transmissions?? Really?

The Daytona didn't drive great and wasn't necessarily the best looking in period compared to Ferrari's other models. The 288 looked too much like a 308 to distinguish itself in period -- and it didn't have the cache' it only eventually gained over decades (after the F40, F50, Enzo... and people recognized that these supercars were very special "once in a decade" opportunities).

These cars do not in any way say anything about the desirability of manual, they just didn't sell well when new for known reasons.

 

Wow. Really missed it I guess.

 

Its a really, really small market. And my guess some of these are just speculators.

If manuals were common my guess is it would be less than 10% of the market. I like manuals but that ship has sailed for most. In fact, more people every day have never driven one and have no desire to learn.

Let's say you turn 50 and you started driving in 1990. You never drove a manual car your entire life. You decide to buy a Ferrari -- your life dream and finally you can afford it. Are you going to buy a manual and learn to drive with it? Doubtful. And that situation grows bigger every day.

What we should be more worried about is the electrification of cars over gas powered. That ship is sailing next and that's an even bigger pity.

 

What worries me about that is how far down that road do we go before the buying public comes to terms with the fact while we are being herded into electric cars there is no plan in place to provide the electricity needed.

Starting to make stick shift cars now is like investing in the worlds largest buggy whip plant.

 

A gated 430 sells for double what an F1 430 sells for. The market is incapable of lying. End of story on desirability.

I really have no idea what you guys are talking about when you say it's a small segment of the market -- I can't recall a single conversation at cars & coffee gatherings where people were praising or preferring F1 over manual -- and I can recall many conversations where they want manual over F1 even though they have an F1 car. If you are tracking the car -- F1 is probably the way to go -- or if you just want the convenience, F1 is fine. My wife loved F1 (till it broke).

Shifting is far more fun and far more engaging for many (probably most) car enthusiasts.

There is also the reliability, practicality, and cost issues of F1 that are a pain in the *** to live with. I'll never forget the phone call I got at work when my wife was stuck in the turning lane on a busy 4-lane road during very heavy stop-and-go traffic because the Maserati F1 gave out. The car couldn't be started or moved because it was stuck in gear, so she was just stuck with everybody beeping at her. What great fun that was . Could have been easily pushed out of the way with manual or auto by popping it into neutral, but it was immovable with F1, until a cop called a tow truck and it finally showed up -- cars backed up in traffic and everybody pissed at her the whole time. That's the real world -- the Maserati was a reliable (though quirky) car, but the F1 left her stranded 3 times (only once in a truly hazardous situation, but still 3 times too many). You don't want to know what the dealer charged to replace an F1 relay, but that is pennies on the dollar compared to repairing a failed Ferrari F1.

Why would/should a car guy put up with those significant additional reliability, practicality, and cost issues for a transmission they prefer far less than manual? Of course, first-time buyers don't know the reliability/cost/practicality/maintenance side of the equation until they've lived with it, so there's no shortage of buyers.

 

And? If 90% of the F430's were manual and 10% F1, the F1 (the rarer version) would be more expensive.

The market goes to RARITY in the collector market. And someone paying a premium for a rare F430 manual is buying it for that reason.

Look -- I like Manuals. But people today just want to go fast and you can go faster without one. EVERY car produced today with both a manual and auto box has the manual being slower. That wasn't the case 40 years ago. Today, it is.

 

Have you talked to anyone looking for a 6-speed? I've never heard anyone who is actually shopping for a 6-speed mention rarity, it's because they want a 6-speed in every instance I've seen. I'm sure there exceptions, but I haven't seen them in the real world.

I totally agree that manuals are slower in today's massively powerful cars, so on a purely functional basis, there is no practical reason for manuals. That said, I haven't seen any real car discussions where people care about that. Why don't the care? For the same reason they say "I don't need 700 horsepower, just give me a car that's fun to drive". Those are the real world conversations that are happening among car people. Yes, there is a line of deep-pocketed people who aren't car people and who don't mind F1, or may even prefer it (at least until they've lived through the hassles of F1) -- but Ferrari is pretty stupid for ignoring the desires of genuine car people who, over many decades, were an instrumental part of making Ferrari what it is.

 

How much of the desirability of the manual is centered around... they don't make them anymore? Or they didn't make many of that model etc? Or this was the last model you could get one? etc... on an on.. VS I want the manual because it's fun or more purist?

I think Porsche success is largely around well they stopped... and if you wanted a new one too bad.. then wait just kidding we'll give you a path to get one... but this is the last one we promise.. oh heck.. we'll build another special model... Fear of missing out, I want to be part of the I own a manual Porsche club.. etc..

My gut says if the manual continued to be a standard option throughout history across the models I doubt they would have made many and I certainly doubt they would command any premium. The only draw I see on the F cars is you can't get em anymore and the gated shifter is an icon of the brands history.

 

This is not P&R so can’t say much. The forced move to EV will eventually kill the Ferrari brand. Can you imagine an EV owner opening the hood and saying, “Wants see my battery pack?” Styling is now generic. It is already hard at first glance to tell a Ferrari from any other exotic. How much will that horsey sticker be worth when you can buy them for $39.95?




Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app

 

Doug Demuro in the year 2040:

"Ferrari really should make gas powered cars again!"

 

There are far fewer F1 355’s than manual 355’s. Have you checked 355 F1 vs manual prices lately?