New MANUAL TRANSMISSION Ferraris-Doug Demuro

A lot of of is mental onanism, anybody today can go get a stick car, nobody is stopping them, or drop some money and convert your car to stick if it's really that important to you.

It's like if I whinge and moan that Ferrari doesn't offer "pink" as a color. Yes, that's true, but is it 'really' true?

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(just make sure you don't commercialize it, that's all)

 

No, I’m claiming, the more hardcore the variant of the sports car (outside of a hyper/super car) the more likely you’ll see a higher take of manuals. That’s what the data from Porsche 911s, Mustangs, and Corvettes show.

 

Yes, I had already addressed this here.

 

Not sure if that's addressing it appropriately by saying 25% of 911's are manual when to Kens point, GT3's were 70% manual.

 

No you didn’t address it because you tried to make the real demand seem lower than it is by just mentioning “25%.” Porsche makes a billion variations of 911’s. Pick the sportiest iterations and that’s your best comparable a Ferrari.



Here’s the full quote from your link.

“Generally, Porsche sees about 25% manual take-rates on its 718 and 911 models, “and it tends to skew toward 50% on higher-powered models such as the 718 GT4 and Spyder, or 911 GT3,”

 

All Cars you can still get a manual

***Next Generation going electric where a stick would be artificial***

• Chevrolet Camaro (Last year 2024 - next gen going electric)
• Dodge Challenger (Last Year 2023 - next gen going electric)
• Porsche 718 (Last Gen - next gen going electric)
• Mazda MX-5 Miata (Last Gen - going electric)

***Commuter cars where stick is there for cost, not thrills***

• Mini
• Kia Forte
• Mazda 3
• Subaru Impreza
• Hyundai Elantra
• Volkswagen Golf
• Volkswagen Jetta

So we're left with these bad boys (many which I'm sure will also transition to electric in the coming years)

• Acura Integra/Honda Civic
• BMW M2/M3/M4
• Cadillac CT4V/CT5V
• Ford Mustang
• Nissan Z
• Porsche 911
• Subaru BRZ/Toyota 86
• Subaru WRX
• Toyota GR Corolla
• Toyota Supra
• Volkswagen Golf R

None of which I argue are traditional cross shopped with a typical 296 buyer with the exception of the 911. (read: nobody goes, should I buy a Subaru WRX or a SF90?)

So, we're left with Ferrari _______ vs the 911 yeah?

Chicago Tribute reports the 911 manual take rate is 1 out of 5.

Again, I ask, in 10 years will Gen Zers/Alpha drivers increase or decrease that take rate?

What do you tell your project designers and logistics folks to plan for if you are CEO of a major car company?

 

Of course real demand is there for stick, the market doesn't lie. The GT3 has a 70% manual take rate. The thing you're confusing is the typical GT3 buyer being the same as a typical Roma/296 purchaser. I purposely used the most 'approachable,' cheapest entry points to gauge real interest in manual, and it's simply not there. Whether the base Mustang, or the last time Lambo/Ferrari offered manual. The take rate is abysmal. I personally prefer stick, so this is not something I'm letting my emotions cloud/bias the reality on the ground.

Nevermind much of the "Special Edition" market is being driven by speculators, which if the low miles on GT3s on the market indicate, would again, be the impetus of the demand. If you planned to buy a Porsche GT3 to 'collect' - which would buy? The Stick or the DCT?

 

You’re bringing up data from a decade ago. That’s old news. Literally . There is resurgent demand for manuals in higher end sports (not sports cars built for your grandmother) and that’s what today’s data shows.

 

Every time they lose a point made they redefine it. Just read through the thread. It happens over and over.

 

The GT3 buyer is not interested in a Roma (already pointed this out earlier). He’s interested in a rear mid-engine. 296 couldve been a great candidate. It’s data Ferrari should consider for an F8 replacement.

 

The truth? You may be right; there is a renaissance, and stick shift reverses its 70-year downward trend. I own all the horses in the race, and my favorite steed is the one with the gated pattern on its side. So I'm rooting for you (I think?)

I can't predict the future.

Maybe you're right; all this electric stuff people seem to be discussing is fake news. ICE's second act is about to begin.

 

If one can’t tell the difference between a base model 911 and it’s target market and GT3 and it’s target market he never got the point to begin with.

Base models are built for the masses. The “masses” have shown less enthusiasm for manuals, but it’s still a meaningful 25%. Ferraris aren’t built for the masses. Therefore one needs to ignore data of cars built for the masses. Get closer comparables. Apples to apples.


It’s funny how people can cling onto obviously irrelevant data to make a point.

 

Exactly.

You finally got it.



*As for the 296,

20 YEARS AGO - the take rate for manuals in F430s was an abysmal 1 in 10.

I would venture to guess today, that would be 5%. Personally me as a CEO? I wouldn't deal with it, but that said - I tend to see things from both consumer and producer.

 

Obviously if Ferrari were to make a limited edition 'manual' anything - it would be sold out before most poor schmoes like me can ever get my hands on it, so is not in debate. Nor is anyone saying manual doesn't have a real genuine fun factor. This is also not in contention.

I believe we're just explaining why diet coke exists, not if it's better.

 

Well. The premise of this thread is Ferrari should re-introduce manuals to make more money … as in capitalize on the premium they could be making. I’m indifferent on this take. I’d rather not pay a premium if the choice was there .

But if a premium or a higher price was neededjustified to cover R&D/production etc, so be it. Personally, I’d wait for the car discounted in the second hand market if enough time passes by. I just want to see the car exist and if its something I like, I’ll snatch one when the price feels right.

 

The person buying a manual is looking for connection in sports car. In the higher-end spectrum of sports cars, the manual connection is valued. In the lower-end of sports cars buyers could care less.


Your analogy is equivalent to saying… “99% of people buy digital watches (the cheapest watch), therefore the true demand for mechanical watches isn’t there.”

… and the obvious question to that statement would be, “wtf does that have to do with high-end watches?”


Now apply that to Ferrari.

 

I'd like to point out the dataphile logic is usually a distraction.

- None of the stated numbers represent what the true preferences were at the time. People are always influenced by what the read in auto mags or what people are talking about, and even if they weren't in many cases dealers only have allocations with one kind of transmission to offer.

- Even if they DID represent true preferences in the past, it's probably a mistake to take generalizations about them into the future. It's conceivable that a year from now all the youtubers and soccer players decide only manuals are cool and force a shift, even though they seem perfectly satisfied with autos at the moment.

 

I have no idea what you are talking about. But more to the point, I don't really care. I scarcely know how to spell Porsche.

 

At the most you’re going to save 100kg removing those and with the weight of modern Ferraris I’m willing to bet that the gearbox not being manual would be far quicker than the difference of weight

 

A point that’s not been mentioned yet is driving tests - here in the uk you have a separate licence which is for automatic cars only if you take your exam in one.

When manuals die out as they are, with every ev being automatic it will really shut the market down further as no one will be able to legally drive one - I don’t know how it is in the rest of the world though

 

I don't know the exact difference in lap times but I've seen it said for the GT3 PDK is 3 seconds faster on the 13 mile (7ish minute) Nurburgring. .25-.5 second better per minute on other tracks.

Removing 220 lbs from a car would have a much bigger difference as you are greatly improving every aspect of acceleration, braking and handling rather than trimming milliseconds off of shifts.

 

There is no question a PDK is better than any man alive. The only question is how do you want to drive. Do you want to hold the Nürburgring record, or have some fun?

 

Scud's single clutch SF2 is fun. Fun factor has gone downhill from there.

 

It probably depends on the track but Walter Rohl did a side by side with the 991.2 GT3 on some track and got a dead even result with extra weight cancelling out the faster shift times perfectly. I'm sure less experienced drivers would be much faster with PDK of course.

 

Instead of making a manual car a special edition for $100,000 more, just sell a manual transmission car and a paddle shift car for the same price. People can buy what they want then. O maybe a manual car for a little bit of a markup, which is hilarious if you think about it. I love 3 pedal cars, but it is silly to start making it more expensive from the factory like its some advanced thing. It's far less stuff to put on the car and should be priced accordingly or at least the same. Not more. My opinion of course.