How bad can I do? | FerrariChat

How bad can I do?

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by VCSMaster, Mar 22, 2023.

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  1. VCSMaster

    VCSMaster Rookie

    Mar 5, 2023
    9
    Alabama
    Full Name:
    Joseph
    #1 VCSMaster, Mar 22, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2023
    Hello all. I made an account here a bit ago and have been snooping around to try and find info on my own before even presenting this, but I'm at the point now where I can't find anything "new" and would like some words of advice from the members of the community.

    To put it shortly, I am considering purchasing a 1985 Mondial QV Cabriolet in argento silver. The car is listed for $34,750 but I think I will offer them $30,000. The car does have service records but there are several minor faults (And potentially 3 major faults) which I am factoring in here.

    In terms of minor faults, the passenger side power window does not appear to go down, the owner's manual is not included (But previous service records are), the car will likely need a battery and fluid changes very soon, one of the marker light lenses is missing, one of the seats is not in great shape, the blower motor does not work currently, it appears that there is some minor body damage in that the front of the hood is bent slightly among other things. None of these particularly put me off of the car, and none of them particularly scream "Don't buy it" to me.

    In terms of major faults, the car (which is in California) will not pass smog. Where I live, we do not have emissions testing, so I am not worried about failing this, but is there anything I should be concerned about here? With the cats right next to the engine, will I destroy something or start a fire if I drive it without fixing/bypassing this?
    Next, not as big of an issue, but the car will need tires soon. Nothing dangerous, just expensive.
    Finally, the car has been sitting on their lot for what looks like at least 5 years judging from records and photos I've found. This would not be a big deal in itself, since it has been stored properly in a climate controlled building with a battery tender, no fuel, etc. What does worry me though, is that per the service records, the car last had it's timing belt replaced in 1997. This means that when I take delivery of the car, I might start it and make sure it runs before the responsible thing to do would be immediately tearing the driver's rear apart.

    The belts and bearings are not particularly expensive, and I am fully expecting to service this car anyways, but before I go putting cash down, I would like other's thoughts on the pricing, condition, and some assistance in terms of doing this timing set. Are there any other things I should replace while in there, besides the belts and tensioner pulleys? I am by no means a mechanical novice, and I've done timing sets on cramped transverse FWD cars before, so the concept is not foreign, but on a scale from "Afternoon project" to "Year long trial," how bad really is it? Will I need any special tools, and is there anything "Dangerous" (To the car) I should be aware of?

    Also, final piece, the car had a new top installed in 2001 and a new fuse box installed in 1999. The top looks to be in very good shape, and supposedly when it was last out the car ran and drove without issue. The seller was kind enough to provide video, if anyone was curious. Do you think the fuse box will need to be replaced again soon with that last service date 24 years ago?

    I apologize if any of this has been asked before, I have found lots of good information browsing around the forums, but I still had these questions remaining. I hope that is understandable, thanks to any of you left reading.

    tl;dr beat up QV for 30k, needs tires and T-belt minimum. Good deal or walk away?
     
    Jeka likes this.
  2. stasha

    stasha Karting

    Sep 10, 2021
    109
    Full Name:
    steve steve
    Pretty thorough breakdown.... more than most get, really!!
    BOTTOM LINE: Get it as cheaply as possible! Bargain hard and pitilessly.

    Since it has been sitting at a dealer (? dealer?) for 5 years, you might add that without a doubt, some yokels have borrowed it for a weekend and, you can imagine a rental car situation regarding carelessness.

    You have a bit of work on the car.....and yet to uncover a dozen more problems. Just off the top of my head, do all the solenoids on all the hoods and gas cap work?
    DOES THE AC work, or does it " just need a recharge"?
    How is the fuse panel (a surefire eventual problem). Are there any blackened spots on any of the 5 multi-terminal connectors?
    On and on. Expect it.
    You will feel well justified if you get a great price when the problems pop up.

    In fact, go for $22k. Settle for $27k, for instance.

    Keep us informed. This is fun.
     
  3. VCSMaster

    VCSMaster Rookie

    Mar 5, 2023
    9
    Alabama
    Full Name:
    Joseph
    Of course. I've bought and sold PLENTY of used cars in my time, mostly around this age. Not quite that new to the biz!
    By "Dealer," it's sitting at the Beverly Hills Car Club, and is listed as part of their inventory. Here is the link if you would like to see for yourself:
    https://www.beverlyhillscarclub.com/1985-ferrari-mondial-cabriolet-c-13387.htm
    There are photos going back several years on Google Maps of their warehouse. The earliest photo is in 2018. The car has service records in 2021 and 2018 from a nearby shop, so I figure the safe assumption is that the car came into their possession around Q3 of 18.
    If it would help, I do have video of the car running and idling (Suspiciously, no video of it starting, probably hard starting if I had to guess) which I can put here as well.

    Seller told me that the air con worked 2 years ago when the car got parked up again, and that the blower motor or resistor has perished at some point and no air comes out of the vents via the fan anymore.
    Photos do show all three panels open, though not the filler flap. I will be sure to ask. The lift support for the trunk is actually not connected in one of the photos, I'm suspicious of that, but broomhandles have never once failed me before.

    I'm aware of the various electrical gremlins these cars have, and I've actually already priced out a new fuse panel, starter, relays, etc to replace all of it at some point, including the apparently very common inline new Bosch starter solenoid relay. That said, for now I'm hoping the car will be in a "useful" state when it shows up or shortly after. The car is going nowhere but on a jack for fluid changes and a timing belt after I take delivery. Service records show that in 1999 a previous owner paid $800 in just parts for a new fuse panel - Do you think it would still be any good 24 years on? Seems to only have had another 20k in miles since it was installed.

    Think 27k is a better price? Maybe I'll offer him 25 and see what he thinks. This whole thing is probably still 3 weeks out from getting serious, though. I'd prefer to have money in hand before negotiating. Gives me an extra chip in my favor if I can wave cash in front of the guy...

    I suppose I should also mention that I'm going to be having the car shipped cross country, from California to Alabama, if I do wind up with it, and that whatever I do get the car for, I'd like to have the ~1800 closed trailer shipping taken out of it. Open trailer is almost 700 cheaper, but I don't want to risk the top coming apart or leaking in my shiny new toy before it's even here! Since asking was 35 and the car is a bit rough, I figure I will make him go start it for me on the phone, and then I'll tell him I'll give him 30 flat including shipping to my driveway. Essentially get the car for 28, around market rate just looking around a bit, though I stand to be corrected.

    I will be sure to keep everyone updated on what happens with the car, whether or not I get it. I'm sure I will have more questions in the future.
    I'm going into this car with very, very low expectations, even though reading around on here has put to rest many of my fears, I have no delusions of flawless paint or high performance from this thing.
     
    ronfrohock and stasha like this.
  4. greatscott73

    greatscott73 Formula Junior

    Sep 1, 2017
    409
    Eastern Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Howard Scott
    I'm not sure any of the fine options now available for fusebox replacement were available in 1999, but my guess would be no. If it was replaced that long ago it was probably an NOS Ferrari part, or possibly even a used piece. Either would point me in the direction of replacing with one of the better options now out there.
     
    ronfrohock likes this.
  5. jkstevens2

    jkstevens2 Formula Junior

    Aug 25, 2015
    278
    Winter Park, FL
    Full Name:
    JK Stevens
    I wish the very best. Just go get it! I love your go-get-em attitude and your mechanical experience will benefit you. You will have a great time working on this car! and the car will reward you with all the Ferrari love you can handle. The F-chat family will do its best to help you out.
     
  6. peterp

    peterp F1 Veteran

    Aug 31, 2002
    6,509
    NJ
    Full Name:
    Peter
    I don't know, I think you can easily find a far less needy QV for $30k. Statements like "supposedly when it was last out the car ran and drove without issue" don't give me a warm feeling (though maybe I'm reading too much into it). It just seems like this car has been neglected and sitting for a long time -- that is definitely not what you want in any car, and particularly a Ferrari, regardless of price. It helps a lot that you can do your own work, but you will be far better off starting with a different QV that has been actively maintained and driven regularly. Better to use your skills to maintain a better car -- fixing up a "fixer upper" is seldom a good idea on a Ferrari, even if you're handy. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of fish in the sea, QV-wise -- I honestly would fish elsewhere.
     
  7. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    I cannot believe you are even considering it.
    I reserve the right to say "I told you so".
     
    peterp likes this.
  8. peterp

    peterp F1 Veteran

    Aug 31, 2002
    6,509
    NJ
    Full Name:
    Peter
    Agree -- run, don't walk, away from this car. There are plenty of fish in the sea for a QV cab -- wait as long as it takes to find the best car you can find, that has been maintained and driven, with as few unknowns as possible. This car is a mystery wrapped in an enigma with regard to unknowns. That's the last thing you want.
     
    Eddie.h and Rifledriver like this.
  9. 19633500GT

    19633500GT F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 9, 2010
    11,925
    Blueberry
    Full Name:
    Muffin-Tops
    If you must buy it, make an offer like Alex at BHCC makes an offer...

    HALVE his ask :)
     
  10. peterp

    peterp F1 Veteran

    Aug 31, 2002
    6,509
    NJ
    Full Name:
    Peter
    I've seen BHCC listings forever, but never looked closely at them at all until recently when I was interested in a Merak they had listed. The car was beautiful, and priced accordingly, so I was shocked that I read in the description that it will need a clutch to be roadworthy. Somebody in another thread about the Merak said BHCC doesn't touch the cars maintenance wise, which I didn't realize.

    They also have blue Mondial QV listed that is low miles and looks beautiful in most regards, but is missing the rear bumper and the description says "car is not currently running". It seems like a very unusual business model to sell cars "as is", but I guess it's working. I'm not suggesting at all BHCC is a bad place -- I have absolutely no experience with them to have any meaningful opinion -- but it sure is an unusual business model.
     
  11. donkost

    donkost Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 1, 2016
    911
    Blandon, PA
    As some others have suggested, I'd hold out for a better example for likely around the same price, give or take a few K. I looked for a year, prior to purchasing a '85 QV Cab from a ferrarichat member back in 2018. It was a great experience and I have not had a single issue with the car, and all of the problem areas had been addressed by the seller and the previous owner. I have around $30K in receipts from those guys. I would not advise buying the BHCC example unless you can get it at a deep discount. You could end up being the one who has to put $30K into the car. :eek: What is the saying- "the costliest Ferrari is the least expensive one", something like that.
     
    Rifledriver likes this.
  12. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Fixer upper Ferraris are not like fixer upper houses. One you can spend your weekends and make some money on. The other will bury you and after seeing how much it cost you and how little you drove it you wife will never let you have another.
     
  13. VCSMaster

    VCSMaster Rookie

    Mar 5, 2023
    9
    Alabama
    Full Name:
    Joseph
    I see a lot of negative response to this car, as if many here are averse to working on their cars. From flipping through a PDF service manual and watching a few videos, it does not look all too bad. This is not my first time around the block with looking at a total money pit of a car that needs a lot of TLC. I just bought a K car that sat for 29 years and dragged it kicking and screaming back to life, that's part of the fun of a project!

    My previous long-term project, which is unfortunately now just a measly enjoy and drive around car, was a 1988 Yugo GV. I bought it in 2018 and it did not run or drive until just last year - about 4 years long project, and I am looking for something else to tinker with on a weekend.

    Make no mistake, this car will see miles. I would hate to buy a nice low mile example and ruin it by daily driving it as much as it will stay running. I've also got no wife!

    Deep discount sounds alright - I think I will definitely offer the guy less after hearing all of this. That said, I have been looking at getting a Mondial (or 308GT4) for about 2 years now and have not seen much appear. Ironically, this car has been sitting in my periphery that entire time, and it's grown on me. The service records shown online actually total more than what they're selling the car for, about $36k

    The one thing I will struggle with will always be body panels. The chances of finding another one in the correct color are slim to none, and I can't paint match to save my life! "Not running" is something I can fix, but I can't repair missing panels. It's also an 84 and has several differences, at least in the pictures, to the 85 or 86 I would like to have.

    Where's the fun in buying a project that's fully sorted? Figuring out what's wrong and patching it back up is half the fun of owning a car like this, at least in my mind.

    I think you are probably right. In the photos I've now gotten, the connectors look alright, but if I do buy this car rest assured that the second thing I order will be a fuse panel for it, following a timing set.
     
  14. donkost

    donkost Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 1, 2016
    911
    Blandon, PA
    Well the part I put in bold takes care of a lot of the problem. ;) I told my wife about the '85 QV Cab when the enclosed carrier was 30 minutes from the house. Then a few weeks later I got her a CPO Lincoln Navigator. heh
     
    ronfrohock likes this.
  15. VCSMaster

    VCSMaster Rookie

    Mar 5, 2023
    9
    Alabama
    Full Name:
    Joseph
    Ha, yeah that's a little late to be having that talk! Didn't like it from day one, I guess. That's a real shame. I've dragged home plenty of things that would get most sleeping on the couch!

    Trust me, as someone who collects printers and just last year brought home a full size CMYK laser printer that weighs 500 pounds, I know...
     
  16. donkost

    donkost Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 1, 2016
    911
    Blandon, PA
    Actually she did like it when she saw it coming off the transport. She took a lot of pics and videos that day. She likes it much better than my other toy, the '71 Mach 1 429 4 speed. I learned for the Ferrari that it was better for it to be a surprise. Then I didn't have to hear about it for a month or two beforehand. You may have heard that women like to complain and they never forget anything from the past. heh I kept it in storage on the rack at Moorespeed in Austin (seller lived near there) for a few months when there was snow and salt where I live.
     
  17. Subito Grigio

    Subito Grigio Formula Junior

    Jun 2, 2009
    327
    Comment: It appears you have not been to CA to actually see the car. You probably should.

    My vote - having worked through 20 years with my ‘83 Mondial Cabriolet - RUN. SG




    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  18. Subito Grigio

    Subito Grigio Formula Junior

    Jun 2, 2009
    327
  19. VCSMaster

    VCSMaster Rookie

    Mar 5, 2023
    9
    Alabama
    Full Name:
    Joseph
    No, I have not. I don't have the time to take a flight cross country to see it. None ever seem to show up on the East coast!

    What makes you think the car is so bad? What part is the red flag?
     
  20. Subito Grigio

    Subito Grigio Formula Junior

    Jun 2, 2009
    327
    I think the absolute best and last comment I can make is: if you don’t have the time to see the car - you will not have the time to give the car all of the attention it will require and demand - over time.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  21. srephwed

    srephwed F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 29, 2012
    6,449
    street,md
    Full Name:
    fred brown
    11 years ago I bought my mondial for 15k sight unseen. There was an inspection done but I think Ray Charles was the head of the crew. Fast forward and the car is still a joy to own. I have spent several thousand dollars over the years in upgrades and maintenance. The car should be worth mid thirties so not a bad investment.
     
  22. VCSMaster

    VCSMaster Rookie

    Mar 5, 2023
    9
    Alabama
    Full Name:
    Joseph
    While I understand the comment, I should mention that taking a 2 or 3 day trip and spending a grand or more just to look at a car is uneconomical even in the best cases. All cars will need work but it's not like the car can't sit and wait until I'm home from work to get that care. An extra 6 hours won't hurt it one bit.

    Ouch, good to know that it's been worth your time though. Looking like within the next week or two I will be picking it up.
     
  23. WilyB

    WilyB F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 23, 2007
    4,104
    AZ
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Is it a French market car (those yellow lights are very specific to the French market)? The car may have been driven tens of thousands of kilometers (divide by 1.6 for miles) so the total mileage might be much higher than 65,931. Maybe more like 100,00+ miles.

    Maybe because it was showing the kilometers driven in Europe?
     
  24. VCSMaster

    VCSMaster Rookie

    Mar 5, 2023
    9
    Alabama
    Full Name:
    Joseph
    I'm not sure I understand, are you saying the swapped the instrument panel? I don't see the logic in how this could happen without deliberate odometer fraud. Surely that would appear on a CarFax report?

    How would I go about finding out what market the car was built for? I don't have any way of knowing this myself.
     
  25. WilyB

    WilyB F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 23, 2007
    4,104
    AZ
    When I imported my own Mondial from Europe EPA/DOT asked me to change the speedometer/odometer from kph to mph. That day, legally and instantly, my 733 kilometers (458 miles) Mondial t became a zero miles vehicule. As the original owner have the full documentation and of course I kept the original odometer.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    As I mentioned, the yellow lights are specific to the French market.
     

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