As i see it, it's not just about incidents that affect the result. All races, all seasons are full of them. It's about the FIA calling it one way "in public", but knowing full well it's really (legally) the other way behind closed doors ... in-season, with a championship hanging in the balance (if Bernie is to be believed).
That's what I am thinking. It opens the door just a crack, which is more than enough for other cases to be opened to change existing results. Scary thought.
Lets say it was discovered post race at the Singapore GP 2008. The likely outcome would be Alonso get's DQ'd and Renault face a ban for 1 or 2 races, and perhaps a fine. Briatore likely gets banned for life. I don't see the why the race would be canceled and struck from the records. I would imagine there would be more "legal" precedent to cancel the 2021 Belgian GP since they did 2 laps behind the SC. Even if Massa has a legal case, he should not pursue it. To be declared the 2008 champion 15 years later, would he really be proud of that, would anybody truly acknowledge him as a Champion?
I don't blame Massa assuming this is new information to him. Often the statute of limitations clock on some things start at point of discovery. I'm with you 100% only if Massa knew this in 2008.
If information was truly "hidden" until now ... if we only just learned, that had rules/statues been followed then Singapore 2008 should have been erased (because of blatant, planned, life-threatening cheating), AND the FIA knew this full-well before the end of the 2008 season ... isn't it harder to acknowledge Hamilton as the 2008 champion? Again, this isn't just looking at a past season and retro-actively trying to interpret rules differently than they were interpreted in 2008. If Bernie is being honest, this is a very late acknowledgement that the FIA ... with full awareness, during the 2008 season itself ... intentionally disregarded the rules/statutues that should have erased Singapore 2008.
Sure. You can't take hammy's title away but you can add Massa's name with an asterisk. But the reality is no one wants to win a title "off the track."
IF we (meaning fans, drivers and the FIA) only just learn that a team was cheating in 2008 ... or 2002, for that matter ... it's too late. The past is past. Kudos to the cheaters ... they fooled everyone. BUT, what if we (meaning fans, and drivers) just learn that the FIA knew full well, in 2002, that a team was cheating, but decided to turn a blind eye and grant/support that team's championship for 2002 anyway. Aren't these two scenarios fundamentally different? (The law certainly views these two situations differently: the jury "got it wrong" ... happens all the time ... versus, the "jury got it wrong" because the prosecutor had evidence that the accused was innocent, but sat on that evidence and failed to disclose.)
I still don't think the penalty would be to cancel the race, I don't see how that is fair to all the fair participants. Quite honestly, I think 2008 was Hamilton's best and most deserving title. It's painful to this day knowing that Massa should have won it, but it was Ferrari's own mistakes and issues that prevented that. I will never see Renault's actions as the reason Massa isn't the 2008 champion.
Yes, there are different, but the effects of resurrecting this would be damaging all the same. How can F1 results and championships have any value if they can be challenged decades later ? Who will gain from this ? Not the millions of F1 followers who will see their sport being devalued. Would Massa be really considered a "true" WDC if he gets his title through legal action? I doubt it.
Agree. The technical issue that eliminated Massa in Singapore could have occured during the race regardless of Piquet crashing. It was a electric signal to say he could go that misfunctioned, and that had nothing to do with the crash. It would have been very convenient for Ferrari, of course, if the race where their system failed was cancelled !!!
Is Hamilton's championship considered "true", if it's only NOW known that the FIA did not follow the rules, KNEW they weren't following the rules BEFORE 2008 ended, but decided to allow the championship anyway? Don't need to make this about Hamilton. Would it not tarnish one of Schumacher's championship years (for example), if it was only just learned yesterday that Ferrari was cheating back in 200x, AND the FIA knew full-well that Ferrari was cheating WHILE it was happening, but the FIA kept a lid on it and supported Ferrari's championship anyway? And we just learn about it NOW? "So sorry you just learned about the conspiracy today old chap. Not just the cheating itself, mind you ... but the conspiracy to cover it up at the highest levels. Too much time has passed, to do anything now!" Wouldn't that tarnish a championship, make it less likely for fans to "accept it", even after all these years? The distinction, once again: FIA looking back at a season 15 years ago, only now deciding that something was against the rules. I fully agree, this leads to chaos, calls all past years into question. Trying to "change the past" ... pointless, can't do it. <versus> FIA looking back at a season 15 years ago, ADMITS that they themselves knew that rules weren't being followed ... not just now, but they knew 15 years ago that rules weren't being followed. Not trying to "change the past", here ... but rather, "acknowledge the past". Won't call any other years into question. This situation is fundamentally different, as i see it ... and it doesn't automatically cast other past years in doubt.
F1 is already a farce, so I say **** it. Have fun, Felipe, and go get what is rightfully yours. Hamilton's 2008 title will have an asterisk (gasp!) for as long as he is allowed to hold it. A true sportsman would surrender it if Bernie's words are proven true.
--In an interview with the F1-Insider website last month, Ecclestone said he and then FIA president Max Mosley knew of the situation “during the 2008 season”. He added: “We decided not to do anything for now. We wanted to protect the sport and save it from a huge scandal. That's why I used angelic tongues to persuade my former driver Nelson Piquet to keep calm for the time being.-- So Moseley and Bernie knew. Piquet is alive still as is Bernie. Massa should depose Piquet now and invite Bernie lol. This has interesting legs for a big story/potential case. Massa has no reason to let this rest now. Bernie opened fully this door for Massa. For completeness add Ron Dennis to the interviews.
I have no dog in that fight, so it doesn't matter to me personally who ends up having the right to call himself 2008 WDC. All I can say is that it doesn't look good for the FIA when the administrators of a world championship can hide the truth for so long, and then one of them reveals it years later. That is assuming this story is true; with Bernie, one never knows ... Most of the F1 history books since that period can be re-written, most of the stats are now false, or in doubt, etc ... It's a mess, and disappointing, to say the least.
What is new? In speed biking there was a widespread use of doping, therefore all winners were tested on forbidden substances. Even urine samples were stored and tested again many years later when detection techniques were improved and it was possible to detect much lower traces of forbidden doping. As a result quite a few times the official winner of the Tour the France was stripped of his title years later. Remember Lance Armstrong? However, it will not enhance the status of the FIA if they really go this way. They better sort themselves out for this season imho.
You have seen the #metoo movement and all the other sexual harassment allegations right? No such thing as statute of limitations anymore it seems.
I think, correct me if I´m wrong, that the results of any FIA championship can´t be altered after December 31st, so even if now they discovered that Nelsinho Piquet was involved in a satanic ritual it wouldn´t matter. In this year´s Daytona 24 hours the winners cheated but, despite they were fined, banned, etc, they were allowed to keep the win, as IMSA doesn´t change the results once they´re published.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/massa-to-look-into-legal-options-over-2008-f1-title-outcome-/10453168/ Massa to look into legal options over 2008 F1 title outcome Felipe Massa plans to evaluate whether there are any legal routes that could help him challenge the outcome of the 2008 Formula 1 world championship he lost to Lewis Hamilton. By: Jonathan Noble Co-author: Erick Gabriel Apr 4, 2023, 2:20 PM The Brazilian has been prompted into action by recent comments from former F1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone, who offered fresh insight into the critical 2008 Singapore Grand Prix that proved hugely costly to Massa’s title ambitions that year. That Singapore race is most famously known for the deliberate crash triggered by Nelson Piquet Jr., which brought out a safety car that ultimately helped his then Renault team-mate Fernando Alonso win the race. The controversy also had a huge influence on the title battle, as the safety car triggered a botched pitstop from Massa’s Ferrari crew that dropped the then leader well down the order and he finished 13th, while main title rival Hamilton grabbed third. The points swing on that day arguably decided the world championship outcome as Hamilton ended the campaign just one point ahead of Massa in the standings after the Brazilian GP. Details about Piquet’s deliberate actions emerged in public the following year, and they resulted in Renault facing a two-year suspended ban from F1, while then team boss Flavio Briatore and technical chief Pat Symonds were also punished for their part in the events. At the time, Massa led calls for the FIA to cancel the result of the Singapore GP, but the governing body’s statutes made that impossible as the classification from each season is set in stone under the International Sporting Code once the FIA Awards ceremony is complete. Furthermore, the FIA’s investigation into the events of Singapore did not uncover any evidence that suggested Alonso and the wider Renault team knew of the crash plan or assisted in its execution, so the governing body felt it would have been unfair to change the result. Ecclestone remarks However, Massa thinks there are grounds to review things once again in the wake of recent comments from Ecclestone suggesting that he and the FIA were aware of the rules breach before the end of the 2008 season – within the time when action could have been taken to alter the result. In an interview with the F1-Insider website last month, Ecclestone said he and then FIA president Max Mosley knew of the situation “during the 2008 season”. He added: “We decided not to do anything for now. We wanted to protect the sport and save it from a huge scandal. That's why I used angelic tongues to persuade my former driver Nelson Piquet to keep calm for the time being. “Back then, there was a rule that a world championship classification after the FIA awards ceremony at the end of the year was untouchable. So Hamilton was presented with the trophy and everything was fine. “We had enough information in time to investigate the matter. According to the statutes, we should have cancelled the race in Singapore under these conditions. “That means it would never have happened for the championship standings. And then Felipe Massa would have become world champion and not Lewis Hamilton.” Those remarks have drawn interest from Massa, who says he wants to evaluate whether or not there are grounds now to take the matter further in legal channels. Speaking to Autosport during the recent Stock Car Pro Series weekend in Goiânia, Massa said: “There is a rule that says that when a championship is decided, from the moment the driver receives the champion's trophy, things can no longer be changed, even if it has been proven a theft. “At the time, Ferrari's lawyers told me about this rule. We went to other lawyers and the answer was that nothing could be done. So I logically believed in this situation. “But after 15 years, we hear that the [former] owner of the category says that he found out in 2008, together with the president of the FIA, and they did nothing [so as] to not tarnish the name of F1. “This is very sad, to know the result of this race was supposed to be cancelled and I would have a title. In the end, I was the one who lost the most with this result. So, we are going after it to understand all this.” Massa accepts that his chances of finding any route to challenge the result are slim, but he insists that does not put him off looking into it. “There are rules, and there are many things that, depending on the country, you cannot go back after 15 years to resolve a situation,” he said. “But I intend to study the situation; study what the laws say, and the rules. We have to have an idea of what it is possible to do.” Massa is clear though that his motivation to look once again in to the matter is not being fuelled by the desire for financial compensation. “I would never go after it thinking financially,” he said. “I would go after it thinking about justice. “I think if you've been punished for something that wasn't your fault, and it's the product of a robbery, a stolen race, justice has to be served. “In fact, the right situation is to cancel the result of that race. It is the only justice that can be done in a case like this.” Massa said it was not uncommon for other sports to amend results many years after competitions when fresh evidence of cheating had emerged. “We have already seen other situations happening in sports, such as Lance Armstrong (cyclist), who was proven to have doped, and he lost all the titles. What is the difference?” When asked if he had spoken to his former Ferrari team about the matter, Massa said: “Not yet.” FIA is final court While Massa plans to look into the matter, there do not appear to be any routes to get the result of the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix cancelled. The FIA’s own International Sporting Code does not allow protests after a race, and any right to request a review expires 14 calendar days after a competition – and four days prior to the date of that year’s FIA prize-giving ceremony. Furthermore, the FIA’s judicial system is clear that the highest authority to make any ruling is the independent International Court of Appeal – and that any persons involved in a championship agree to abide by this. So there are no alternative courts that Massa could use. Article 1.3.1b of the ISC states that competitors: “Shall undertake to submit themselves without reserve to the above and to the decisions of the sporting authority and to the consequences resulting therefrom.” While in theory Massa could seek out the views of the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS), it has no jurisdiction over the FIA on issues like this. The FIA statutes dictate that the CAS may only be involved in matters relating to the FIA’s Anti-Doping Disciplinary Committee. This judicial structure within the FIA, of the final call being the ICA, was one of the reasons why Mercedes abandoned its challenge over the result of the 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, where Hamilton lost the title after rules regarding the running of the event were not followed by F1 race director Michael Masi. Speaking at the time about the matter, Mercedes team boss Toto Wolff said that if there had been options of taking it through other legal channels, then they would have been pursued. “We believe we had a very strong case, and if you look at it from the legal side, if it would have been judged in a regular court you could almost guarantee that we would have won,” he said. “But the problem with the ICA is the way it is structured. “The FIA can’t really mark their own homework. And there is a difference between being right, and obtaining justice.”
Bernie opened his mouth. Understand that Massa is curious among other emotions. I have no problem with him pursuing this at all. The FIA and Liberty should be aware of this and all other things they have inherited from the little corrupt troll that is Bernie lol He is literally asking for this himself by running his old mouth. The truth about how he covered all this up potentially should see light. Massa competed with Ferrari and are owed this. Frankly if its all true - that title is worthless even though it will never be changed. You cannot think this item, this staged event did not impact the title. Given what Bernie has stated how can it be viewed otherwise. Its collusion with the FIA leader and FOM. In essence they ensured a title was engineered minus the impact this would have had officially if this was in the open before the end of that season.
For many people the 2021 WDC will always have an asterix called "Abu Dhabi". No matter what the FIA will do now, it seems the 2008 WDC will have a similar asterix called "Singapore". In both cases by no fault whatsoever by these WDCs themselves (in contrast to the 1994 WDC with asterix "illegal driver aids". He knew.).
I love Massa, but this is absolutely ridiculous. He should be embarrassed. Massa didn't lose the championship in Singapore. He lost in Malaysia and England, where he spun off the track and left with no points both times. All he had to do was keep his car straight in those races and score one point, and he would've been world champion. Those races were completely within his control, and he blew it both times. End of story. Massa handed the WDC to Hamilton in 08', and the latter gladly accepted his gifts. And why didn't Massa and Ferrari raise their charges that Renault had fixed the Singapore race then and there? Heidfeld wasn't afraid to call it suspicious, and I can promise you Brawn or Todt would've demanded an investigation. That's on Massa and Ferrari. 08' was the year that broke the machine that had been Ferrari. They've never recovered from it.
But have you noticed that if Lance Armstrong was stripped of his 7 wins in the Tour de France, no other rider was designated as winner these years. The authorities didn't give the trophy to those who came second during these years. On the winners list, there is a 7 years gap, as if nothing happened; nobody was rewarded for his effort, as if the competition never took place. No, it would no enhance the FIA status is they start revisiting the championships of many years back, and revise the results. I also think F1 reputation as a serious championship will suffer if all results have to considered provisional for ever.
