How to clean paint without optimal lubrication? | FerrariChat

How to clean paint without optimal lubrication?

Discussion in 'Detailing & Showroom' started by 92GTA, Apr 15, 2023.

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  1. 92GTA

    92GTA Rookie

    Oct 21, 2010
    38
    USA
    I have a situation where I can't foam to emulsify, lift, or lubricate the paint surface. - Let's go with a hypothetical...

    Pretend you have a 1980s Ferrari that after assembly at the factory, no fuel was ever added and the engine was never started, it was immediately put away in storage. Complete with all of the paper labels and markings for assembly, inspection, etc. As such it also has all of the factory protective lubrication/coatings on various parts that would normally be cleaned away during dealer prep. - For the sake of eliminating some variables, pretend it was stored in absolutely perfect ideal conditions of darkness, consistent temperature, humidity, and virtually dust free. It was under a cover and it was lifted off the tyres. - Let's also pretend it's been donated to an institution like the Smithsonian and that this vehicle is so rare and important, that you as a conservator have been assigned to continue its preservation with the goal of keeping it precisely how it rolled off the assembly line. As a conservator, you approach it from the perspective of a materials scientist focusing on the deterioration of materials. Your first concern is to clean every surface possible. Let's start under the hood to get into the right frame of mind.

    As a professional conservator, you know that this artefact must be cleaned in a way that will not alter or harm surface finishes. You can't have droplets of anything airborne that will land on adjacent surfaces, so your only option is a small detail brush with a vacuum on most of it. Perhaps a VERY diluted SimpleGreen/water mixture to damp the end of a Q-tip for stubborn build-up (remember, the engine has never run and it has never seen a road, so we are only talking about dust/light grime at the very worst that has settled on surfaces). That is all fine and well, you proceed to spend months going over every inch; inside, under, etc.

    Now we come to the question for this thread: What do you do about the painted surfaces?

    Let's presume you have used a hand-held blow dryer to remove as much dust from the paint as possible in a down-draft paint booth so the dust was collected. But the paint is still not "clean". The paint was 2-stage so there is a clear coat and due to the proper storage, there is no oxidation. Great. But you also know that every particle must be removed from the surface so that in years to come nothing will etch the surface. - It would seem at best that we could perhaps apply some sort of spray detailer as a lubricant to the surface of a cloth and gently wipe the surface. - The crucial thing to keep in mind however is that this surface can NEVER under any circumstance be paint corrected. It must remain as it left the assembly line for historical purposes. The problem is, every time you touch the surface physically, you risk introducing micro marring which after years and years could lead to visible swirl marks. As a professional conservator, you know that would be unacceptable for this artefact.

    What do you do? Exactly what would you use and what techniques would you employ to meet your goals of cleaning the painted surfaces as a conservator on this project?

    Note that I have used this hypothetical to convey and illustrate how this vehicle must be approached, but this is a real vehicle that does require this sort of attention. So I'd also love to hear tips on any other aspects of top-tier vehicle conservation.
     
  2. DreamCarrera

    DreamCarrera Formula Junior

    Oct 25, 2006
    825
    S.E. PA
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    Eric
    Wow, this takes obsessive car care to an extreme level but I guess I can appreciate the thought exercise.

    I think it will be nearly impossible to clean the painted surfaces of the car without introducing some micro marring or leaving behind traces of cleaner on the paint. Assuming the car's paint is already very clean, I would wet a proper microfiber cloth (use a cloth that will not mar the paint - I like Cobra 530 towels) with some type of car wash - I use Optimum No Rinse (mixed with distilled water) as I think it provides great paint protecting lubrication - to clean the paint surface while also providing some protective lubrication. Fold the towel a few times and only lightly rub the edge of the towel along the paint using the lightest of pressure. After this, you could take a second towel that is only slightly damp with distilled water and again gently rub the paint surface to remove any traces of the cleaner left behind on the paint. Work small areas of the paint at a time and carefully blot the paint dry with a dry cloth as necessary. I bet this would give great results but it will still probably introduce some paint marring over time.

    Store the car in a proper environment (proper temp. and humidity, dust-free, etc.) to avoid having to touch/clean the paint too often. A proper microfiber cloth should not damage the paint (however, many microfiber cloths will, even by themselves, mar the paint - so choose the proper cloth)...it is the dirt/debris that is present on the paint that may cause damage as it is dragged along the paint during the cleaning process.
     
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  3. msdesignltd

    msdesignltd Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Nov 17, 2003
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    Michael
    Ferrari did not use 2 stage in 1980's..paint was one stage soft enamel.
    Worse for you case in point.
     
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  4. JL350

    JL350 Karting

    Jan 20, 2013
    215
    You need to remember that the water is the main solvent when cleaning the paint, soaps and detergents are wetting agents that break down contaminants and allow the water to wash away the solids etc. Paints for vehicles are designed or selected for longevity under normal conditions. I think ideally using a mild soap and lots of water, good quality, to wash away the solids that cause the surface marring with a micro fibre woolly wash mit is the best option. Rinsing the solids and soap solution is done without letting anything dry out, needless to say if it can be done inside would be best. Blowing excess water off with an air blower prior to towelling dry with a micro fibre towel lubricated with Autoglym aqua wax or similar helps to dry the paint without streaks etc.

    Now you want to do it as a restoration say for art work, so now the above process is done on small sections at a time, so you need to use smaller equipment maybe an adapted wet vacuum cleaner to execute the above. When you look at what they are doing with art restoration is actually using different solvents to remove oil, greases, soot and other contamination while removing minimal underlying paint, but invariably some damage is caused….

    You may actually be better testing to see if steam cleaning, careful small scale so as to agitate and move the solids without any mechanical abrasion, or not actually cleaning it at all maybe better options…
     
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  5. peterp

    peterp F1 Veteran

    Aug 31, 2002
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    You shouldn’t need anything as strong as Simple Green dor an engine that has never been run. I would mix “Optimum No Rinse” (ONR) mixed with distilled water in a spray pump bottle for area where you can spray, and apply with a paint brush in areas where you can’t spray.

    ONR is designed for whole car washing without rinsing with water (just dry the car). It has lubricants built in and cleans very effectively. Using only distilled water ensures there can be no mineral deposits/water spots left on the engine.

    If there is any area that ONR doesn’t get clean, you can spot use something stronger for final cleanup, but ONR should clean up pretty mulch everything for an engine that never ran.
     
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  6. 92GTA

    92GTA Rookie

    Oct 21, 2010
    38
    USA
    Thanks everyone for their comments, I really appreciate it.

    I'll look up this Optimum No Rinse stuff you guys mention and also the Cobra 530 towels.
     
  7. 92GTA

    92GTA Rookie

    Oct 21, 2010
    38
    USA
    Correct, even right up thru the 1990s and possibly later. But for the sake of this thread, the red painted vehicle does have a clear coat and knowing someone would point that out, that's why I specifically mentioned it haha.
     
  8. Giallo 550

    Giallo 550 Formula 3

    May 25, 2019
    2,278
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    Jim
    Griot's Speed Shine and several high quality microfiber towels. Spray liberally and wipe only side to side.

    Literally anything you do will "mar" the surface, but I can't imagine anything else better for the job.
     
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  9. lagunacc

    lagunacc F1 Rookie
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    Aug 24, 2013
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  10. 92GTA

    92GTA Rookie

    Oct 21, 2010
    38
    USA
  11. lagunacc

    lagunacc F1 Rookie
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    Aug 24, 2013
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    Don't lick the car though :)
     
  12. lagunacc

    lagunacc F1 Rookie
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    Aug 24, 2013
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    These guys might offer some interesting insights and would probably find the project interesting

    https://ammonyc.com/
     
  13. 92GTA

    92GTA Rookie

    Oct 21, 2010
    38
    USA
    Yeah, I've been following him for years. His technique is to spray the surface and not the microfibre - which granted will work for me on a couple of large panels, but not for the majority of the vehicle due to all of the vents, ducts, trims, etc. etc. This vehicle has an extremely busy design with tons of exposed engine and suspension etc. that I want to avoid rogue mist/droplets on. I'll of course do the best I can.
     
  14. lagunacc

    lagunacc F1 Rookie
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    Aug 24, 2013
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    Thought he would have some recommendations on conservation and preservation vis a vis detailing.

    Some links

    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=The+Conservator%E2%80%99s+Mindset
    https://www.hagerty.com/media/search?s=The+Conservator%E2%80%99s+Mindset

    https://www.culturalheritage.org/

    https://www.amazon.com/16550-PPS-SUN-GUN-Light/dp/B00COQ8OLA/
     
  15. 92GTA

    92GTA Rookie

    Oct 21, 2010
    38
    USA
    I appreciate it. No disrespect to Larry, but he isn't focusing on still new mint condition preservation. He is focusing on vehicles that have been on the road and may be on the road again even if in a very limited capacity. - Take for example the Mud Tire Shine product he sells; if you read the MSDS, it contains petroleum distillates. This is a huge no-no on tyres. Sure it's needed to help absorb some chemicals into the surface of the rubber, but it breaks down the rubber little by little. It's fine high-end tyres and is better than everything else out there, but not for true 30yr old NOS tyres you want to preserve to last another 100 years. A trained museum conservator with a background in material science would know you don't ever let petroleum distillates near rubber. I've also seen him use an ozone machine inside a car, which while required sometimes to remove mould contamination, breaks down all of the interior plastics, rubbers, and leather just ever so slightly unless you are timing the process like a hawk to minimize exposure.

    Those "The Conservator’s Mindset" videos are very good but again, they are conserving very old vehicles which have not been preserved correctly or in pristine condition. So they are doing true conservation work as opposed to simply a long-term conservation mindset to a still brand new museum piece.

    I think as the decades go on and we see more and more cars and motorcycles that were put away brand new (as been the trend among high-end collectors since the 1980s and even late 70s), we will be looking at a new mindset and products developed just for this segment. Leather, plastic, and rubber can be the most difficult to stabilize as there are tens of thousands of chemical formulations and many of them simply degrade over time via outgassing, natural processes, chemical reactions, contact with oxygen in the atmosphere, etc. Even if you put a set of brand new tyres into an argon gas-filled bag, you still will need to service this as the tyres will out gas and that itself will degrade the rubber if just left in there. Plus the bags would need to be black to block light, plus the bags would need to be archival grade so they themselves don't outgas onto the tyres, maybe even build a figure to support the tyres inside the argon bags so they don't come in contact with the inside of said bags, etc. It can be very complicated, but imagine in 200 years having tyres that can't be used as tyres, but would still look new for display and educational purposes for a short time when brought out of storage. - That's just being totally pedantic over 1 item lol.
     
  16. 92GTA

    92GTA Rookie

    Oct 21, 2010
    38
    USA
    #16 92GTA, Apr 17, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2023
    For example on this vehicle, it had nitrogen in the tyres and we replaced that with argon. The tyres were suspended and wrapped in archival-grade butcher paper to protect them from UV and dust. The wheels were coated in Vasoline according to the log book and we are using something like beeswax (archival-grade) this time. The stands that were keeping the suspension loaded had rubber on top that out-gassed and left marks on the lower control arms, so we replaced those with old wood we cut into blocks that hadn't been treated with anything. We coated the wiper blades carefully in silicone along with most other rubber trim, we coated all the glass in wax, etc. etc. - We are even considering an argon bag for the entire vehicle but that would need constant monthly maintenance depending on the permeability of the bag and how well we seal it, plus that would add complications with items on the car still out-gassing a bit and changing the microclimate in the bag not to mention controlling the humidity could be an issue, the list goes on. But are considering everything.
     
  17. lagunacc

    lagunacc F1 Rookie
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    Aug 24, 2013
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    Really nice post. Totally spot on - most of the industry (like most everything) is geared primarily towards short term results which is not necessarily congruent with the long term - kinda like cosmetic surgery vs aging gracefully.

    Would be interesting to hear Ferrari's / Lambo's / Alfa's museums' experiences.
     
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  18. 92GTA

    92GTA Rookie

    Oct 21, 2010
    38
    USA
    #18 92GTA, Apr 17, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2023
    Sadly, even an institution like the Barber Museum pr the Peterson doesn't have a team of dedicated international museum-level trained conservators doing this for their collection, and I highly doubt any vehicle museum is. Even the Smithsonian only gives this level of care to things like their NASA archive, not their vehicles.

    I'd say auto museums are very underserved and under-cared for in this aspect due to budgets. Most are happy to simply keep the vehicles clean and stored decently at best, even fully maintained would be above and beyond for most.

    Take for example the zero-mile Ducati 750 green frame that was at the Getty for decades, one side of it is TRASHED due to the UV light. A real shame as it's no doubt the only one that's still zero-mile in existence.

    I see a lot of vehicles in museums world wide, and I can say that many modern vehicles in museums have discoloured carbon fibre from excessive UV, same for their tyres, etc. Especially the older late 80s and early 90s car with exposed carbon fibre before really great UV additives were created and in wide use.
     
  19. Challenge

    Challenge Formula 3

    Sep 27, 2002
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    What is the car that is worth all this? 288 GTO or F40 are the only 1980s supercars for Ferrari.
     
  20. peterp

    peterp F1 Veteran

    Aug 31, 2002
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    I agree with @JL350 that steam cleaning should not be overlooked as an option. Keep the steam away from paper labels, but otherwise it is pretty benign process that leaves no residue (using distilled water) and can work very well. I still think Optimum No-Rinse will probably be best, but I use also steam often and it is great for cleaning just about anything (not Nomex gloves, it turns out :(, they looked great after steaming, but lost all their grip :(:().
     
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  21. DreamCarrera

    DreamCarrera Formula Junior

    Oct 25, 2006
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    Eric

    Unfortunately, one thing is certain and universal - Mother Nature is a very serious *****!
     
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