Starter won't turn over stranded on road side

Hi Fchatters, I am in a parking lot and my 1988 Mondial 3.2 won't start.

Lights go on, solenoid at starter appear to click, but no start. Had a good guy boost me, no diference. Battery is 3 years old, I presume ok, as boost made no difference.

Any ideas before the flat bed tow comes?

I am presuming I might have a failed solenoid that can't give the required juice to the starter. 75km on the car, original starter I presume. Anything else I might jiggle or fix while stranded and hope to get lucky?

Picture attached because, why not!

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Put it in bottom gear and push car a few inches to move the flywheel a bit, just in case the bendix is not engaging

 

Did have this and after changing a lot of parts, a bad going coil was the culprit...

 

So just as the tow arrives, it starts!

But after I get home, tunr off won't start. Put on battery charger, indicated the battery was low about 25-50 percent. I don't understand why the boost would not have started things up.

Bad alternator? No alternator light going on. Bad battery (gel battery 2 years old)?

Is there a practical way to test if the alternator is charging, I would prefer not to waste funds on a new battery.

 

Will do the volt meter tests, but in my experience is that it can be quite hard to determine a battery verses alternator issue without load testing equipment. Since the boost did not make a difference, it seems more like a battery issue, but I suppose a battery at 25% or less might not boost right aways, and the battery may have gone flat due to the alternator not charging. I know this is basic stuff, but I have not had this type of problem in 20 years or so, so time to relearn the basics for diagnosis.

 

Later this evening.....turn on the headlights and see if they dim when you try to start the engine. If they don't......that is a starter issue or starter wiring issue. Even a battery 25% down will attempt to turn the starter motor. It also explains why the jump did not work.

 

Go to local auto store and buy a cheap battery load tester, it will test its cold cranking amps and a few other things. The battery probably has a bad cell connection which is why the boost did not help

 

Irrelevant for the OP now, but can you pop start a Mondial in lieu of the flatbed?

 

Battery charged up to about 75% per the battery charger, resting voltage is at about 12.7v.

The car starts instantly, and the voltage while running is 13.8v. The voltage does not change with the throttle blipped, its just stays steady at the 13.8v.

It is a Feb 2021 dated Energizer AGM battery, I understand the AGM's have slightly higher voltages than flooded cell batteries.

I shut the engine down, and over half an hour the voltage drifts back down to the 12.7v.

I think these voltage measurements are in range for what would be normal?

All begs the question of what caused the battery to run down in the first instance, and why the boost did not work (although some suggestion around this have been made, thank you).

 

a

Hello my Mondial brother, Moysiuan,
,,
we love our cars.
you have a few options.
install an Amp gauge, too instantly analyze the health of your charging system.
Anything , can cause a “higher then Normal,” amperage draw.
also, a slipping alternator belt could be from a “warn out.” Pulley,, other stuff like our Wires ,, can do weird things.
Good luck with that project. ( smile)

Nice car,
Edwardo
1981 Mondial 8 euro.

 

Can anyone confirm that 13.8v when charging measured at the battery is what one would expect from the Bosch 85amp alternator? Seems a bit low, but not so low that I would assume a problem. There must be a normal specification for this?

I do have a spare voltage regulator, but taking off the alternator and replacing the regulator if not needed does not hold much appeal.

 

Measure the volts with engine running, the turn on the headlights. It should maintain the volts as the voltage regulator adjusts to suit the additional lighting load. Then try switching on more lights, ac fan etc

 

12.77v at rest.

When started 13.8v. Lights on 13.7v. Lights and ac/fan on 13.6v. Enough of a dfifference to suggest an alternator issue or not material?

 

Sounds ok to me, the regulator is coping with load change and volts looks ok. If the system was not coping the volts would be dropping when the extra loads were switched on

 

I am pretty sure this is starter problem, the solenoid clicks once and there is a slight whirr. Must be the bendix drive or the solenoid. There are solenoids on ebay, do you know a part number for the solenoid?

 

These cars are known for starting problems and the fix is to fit a relay kit, available from Superperformance in uk. Very cheap. To test the system you need to find the 12 volt signal wire on the solenoid, get a couple of crocodile clips, length of insulated wire. Connect up long wires so volt meter in car with positive to the solenoid and earth to body. Turn the key and see how many volts at solenoid signal. They suffer from reduced volts from fuse box or key switch , so the solenoid will not pull in. If you get 12 volts then solenoid needs looking at.
The relay kit uses the original signal but it gets it power from the big starter wire. ie it will work with reduced signal volts.
Not showing solenoid as separate part, but bosch so can be fixed locally

 

I am trying to do the starter voltage test. One of the wires came off, there are two male connectors on the solenoid, one just by the red/yellow stripe wire, and one above the nut that holds the main thick cables. Which one of these connections is the right one to put this wire connector back on, one seems to remain bare?

Which is the 12 volt signal wire to do the voltage test?

 

I am going to presume it connects to the top male connector, tested the white wire with an aligator clip, with ignition on and into the start position, and I get about 12.5 volts. So I think I am getting the voltage necessary to instruct the solenoid to actuate.

The starter whirs, so I guess the bendix unit is not actuating. Or the solenoid not giving it enough punch to engage?

The main battery connector wires, the thick ones on the solenoid bolt, I presume they will not be the problem? I rechecked the integrity of the big red Anderson connector and all seems fine.

Really dumb question, but can I just use the battery disconnect switch to deal with current to these big wires, or is removing the positive connector at the battery necessary (which is a pain to get at right now with my car jacked up at the rear only). Is the wire from the Anderson connector to the starter always "live" and therefore I just disconnect the Anderson connector to be safe to remove the starter wires and not have a wrench hit the frame or such and cause a shorting problem while undoing things?

 

Absolutely. And I’ll even kick it up a notch by saying you can pop start a Mondial in reverse! How do I know?

It was 2008 and the Phillies were in the World Series. Game 4 I believe. And my wife and I said to ourselves, when’s the next time the Phillies are going to be in the World Series? Let’s go! So we decided because it was a perfect fall evening to take the Mondial. It was a Sunday night game. We didn’t have tickets yet, just planned on scalping them. It was about 6:30 pm when we made it to just after the Gladwyne exit of the Schuylkill Expressway. We called my sister. My sister was already at the game and she said “Don’t come to South Philly right now, there’s tons of traffic. Just wait a little.” So we did. We got off at Belmont Avenue, and pulled into Lee’s hoagie house and we shared a tuna and a turkey hoagie. Approximate 30 - 40 min had passed, so we jumped back into the Mondial, which had been parked facing slightly up maybe a 10-15 degree incline. I turned over the key, and nothing happened. We sat there perplexed, not sure what to do. Then I realized something I had just seen in the movie “Little Miss Sunshine.” I said “honey, gonna try something.” I released the parking brake, put the shifter in reverse, held down the clutch, and eased up on the brake. We started rolling down the hill in reverse. After about 10 feet, I released the clutch, and lo and behold, it started! I pressed down the clutch, then said, “Honey, we can’t go to the Phillies game. We can’t chance breaking down at midnight on a Sunday night/Monday morning in South Philly in a Ferrari when we both had to work the next day. So we drove home to watch the end of the game! And the Phillies won the game that night over Tampa Bay.

It ended up being a bad battery, by the way….

 

Drop me an e mail address and will send wiring diagram. The big wire is the battery feed and according to the diagram the signal is white ( only 1 wire anyway)- connects to ignition key switch. The isolation switch at the battery may be in the negatice line i think.
If it ends up as a starter problem , the brushes can be replaced as they can be the issue. Easy enough to get.

 

The starter removal was not too bad. You get it out through the left rear wheel well area, I only had to remove the Anderson connector sheild, and I flipped the unit backwards before pulling it out. Three 13mm bolts hold it on, and of course you first remove the solenoid wire.

I took it to a local rebuilder, he immediately noted the bendix unit was failing. He also noted that the bendix unit is probably still available, but has a local fellow who can actually rebuild the bendix unit itself, as long as the gear teeth are ok which mine are.

He will tear the unit apart and inspect things.

Should not be too bad to reinstall. So this looks like the solution to the issue I started the thread with.

I also note that my initial battery being flat was probably the Anderson connector being loose. If you push the starter wire on the connector, the wire can push out slightly even though the plastic connector would snap in place. Make sure that big wire contact is solidly connected. It was probably loose enough to prevent the alternator charge from reaching the battery consistently, but still connected enough to jolt the starter with at least some voltage.

So I think a loose connector, combined with a failing bendix gave me the start problems.

But after all this it is good to confirm all my wiring and alternator and battery are all in fine shape.

 

Impressive one day turnaround for a full rebuilt starter from DG Auto Electric in Etobicoke, Ontario.

Pics for posterity attached with Bosch part numbers for a 1988 Mondial 3.2 CH88.
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Long term wise, might be worth fitting a relay kit as only $15 about

 

After 35 years, and garage kept and never driven in the wet, I would say the long term has arrived, and all the voltages are all as they should be! But point taken, the relay idea is sound.

 

100% starter relay. Do it. I had the Bosch kit in my 348 and it worked perfectly.

I put a similar starter relay in an old Alfa Spider just last week. Previously, starting the car was like rolling the dice.... turn the key and get lights but zero at the starter, or turn the key and get it to fire. Ya never knew. And it was a massive inconvenience. After I installed a starter relay -- BAM! The car has fires strong every single time now. It's literally like night and day.

You don't necessarily need to use the Bosch kit, but maybe that makes things easier. In my case, I used a Bosch 332019150 relay ($8.50) and some 16AWG + 12AWG wire. Total cost of the project was perhaps $25 between the relay, wire, spade connections and heat-shrink tubing.