812 Replacement Rumors

Thanks for the clarification. So, by reversing the engine you can claim it is a new one.

Unfortunately Ferrari can't do the same. It seems to reduce weight nicely!

 

side-by-side comparison

https://www.lamborghini.com/en-en/models/revuelto

https://www.lamborghini.com/en-en/history/aventador-lp-780-4-ultimae

REVUELTO
AVENTADOR
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
DISPLACEMENT
6498.5 cm³ (396.6 cu in)
6,498 cm³ (396.5 cu in)

ENGINE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM
PFI - Bosch (Port Injection)
V12, 60°, MPI (Multi Point Injection)

BORE X STROKE
95 mm x 76.4 mm (3.74 x 3.01 in)
95 mm x 76.4 mm (3.74 x 3.01 in)

COMPRESSION RATIO
12.6:1
11.8:0.2 (?? appears to be typo)

MAX. POWER (KW/CV)
825 CV (607 kW) @ 9250 rpm
780 CV (574 kW) at 8,500 rpm

MAX. TORQUE
725 Nm @ 6750 rpm
720 Nm (531 lb.-ft.) @ 6,750 rpm

NOTICE the Bore&Stroke are identical and Torque is almost identical...this is definitely not a new engine, just a re-worked one...

 

All of the "new engine" stuff aside - Lambo has a 3 year wait on the car (I cant get one until 2026). Says something !!!. Before you know it Lambo will be known as the V12 Kings and Ferrari will have lost this mantel.

Trust F167 is fast tracked by Ferrari as hopefully someone in their understands what losing the V12 crown would mean to the company that pioneered the V12

 

Even in a "slow year" Ferrari vastly out-sells Audi V12s...who has never produced more than 1300 V12s in any year of the Aventador...

So, that '3 year wait' would be less than 2 year wait in terms of Ferrari production...as I strongly suspect Revuelto production will be less than 1000 per year and could very well see some delays due to production issues, time will tell...So, the "3 year wait" could easily be due to actual production will not begin "in volume" for more than another year...

Besides, you do realize the Revuelto has "13 drive modes" and not one is combustion-only...in fact, most of the "drive by" videos are alarmingly devoid of any actual V12 sounds and those that do are rather bizarre (most only include the ridiculous 'ev only' mode sounds)

 

Here is what I think.
New Lamborghini is better because of high reving V12 than V8TT. The packaging of hybrid with V12 reqired quite some space thus their looks reflects this by long hanging back section. They could have gone to RWD and small motor and battery but they can not let go of performance.
So in the end, for me car is only ‘engine and design’ and Lamborghini loses design and Ferrari loses the engine thus euqal.
I chose not to order the new Lambo yet.

My best car would be mid engined small V12 for sound and feel with hybrid system RWD car of 800HP designed with Ferrari language weighing 1700 kg wet with soft suspension and MPS4S tires.


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Thanks for this data. With so similar specs and output looks more like effectively just higher compression and a tune for higher revs. Definitely not a new engine.

 

I was very interested in the Revuelto until I read the weight figure.

I don’t mind the Ferrari being heavy because it’s front engine and GT. That means good boot space, comfort, good looks all with an amazing feeling and sounding engine. All of that makes me look past some of the downsides like weight and handling

The Aventador/Revuelto are heavy, stiff, and barely have storage space with horrible visibility. So even if they look great, I’m getting all of the downsides of a sports car without any of the upsides, so to me all they’re good for is cruising in short distances, showing off and accelerating in a straight line here and there.

And then you find out that the SVJ, Lambo’s most hardcore, track focused, mid-engined V12 is heavier than the plush and comfy 812!

(SVJ’s weight here)


(My 812’s weight here)
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Or maybe it really is a new engine: since Bore and Stroke are identical, while Displacement is slightly different, the big improvement in this NEW engine is an all-new π

 

I suppose Lambo will still handle well even though it weights a lot. Hybrid was kind of sensible thing for them.

Ferrari may have skipped hybrid powertrain because of more important reasons than absolute weight, such as packaging.

Fitting electric motors to front may not have been an easy task and could have caused overly front biased weight distribution.

Adding electric motors to rear would have meant driving 1000+ bhp via rear tyres only. Most likely this would have sacrificed some luggage space as well.

Also, maybe Ferrari wants to keep their final classic V12 cars operational and not be abandoned because of battery problems.

 

Interesting news this morning.
I guess you will all be aware of the Aston Martin DB12 launch.Initial impressions are good.To my eyes it is a return to a beautiful looking Aston.
Interesting part is that it now seems Aston will return to a V12 which will be offered in the DB12 at some point in the future.
Beautiful looking front engined Super Tourer (Aston's name for it).Must be a rival to F167.
Laurence Stroll has obviously learnt a lot from his large F car collection and association with Maranello !!

 

He’s a very smart guy and if Ferrari would let down V12 after F167 i am fairly sure he will be there to take this market..

 

The new DB12 is a triumph in every way. It’s the first Aston Martin I have EVER been interested in. Why? They finally gave it a proper interior, switchgear, and dashboard. It’s worth checking out …
Finally, SOMEONE has done it right!

 

I agree on interior.
Some interesting comments from the designers about moving back to buttons because haptics have been overdone.

 

Absolutely not !!! 167 is in another league, at all levels !
The DB 12 is a concutent of Roma, at best... but so much bigger that it's hopeless

 

Lawrence has sold almost all of his Ferraris in the meantime.

Marcel Massini

 

Absolutely !

 

Not driven either DB12 or 167 so can't really comment on this but I agree Astons have not been in the same league as Ferrari and I would be amazed if 167 is not a much better car than DB12.
With the current engine I also agree the Roma is a more natural comparison but the point I was trying to make (obviously badly !) is if Aston do drop a new V12 into it then inevitably it will be compared to 167.
In the UK the most common comparison test with 812 was always DBS Superleggera.

 

The Aston’s always felt more like a freight train gathering speed while the 812 and the Ferrari mid engine offerings were much more than that. I actually felt the Aston’s were more like the MB AMG SLS performance wise while the F12/812 was more of a “hyper”GT.
I expect the F167 up its game to at least 812C levels of performance but frankly the game has moved on. As much as many on FerrariChat talk about emotion, noise, beauty etc I really don’t want to spend $500K+ on a V12 Ferrari that doesn’t at least keep it close to other (albeit mostly forced induction) supercars. Otherwise F167 owners risk looking like old fogies at best or dare I say it, poseurs.
I know Ferrari engineers can do it given the green light from the Ferrari administration. They have the money, let’s hope they have the cojones to do it.


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Ferrari road legal front / mid-front V12s are Grand Tourer's in their day they were the best but when Motor racing series like F1, Endurance with there top end prototype classes went to mid-rear that was the seed that would see the mid-rear layout become the King in the future.

The first mid-rear engine sport car was the 1962 Rene Bonnet Djet, Cars like the Lamborghini Miura, Ferrari 512BB etc followed in the 60s and 70s. The 1980s saw an even big shift. For Ferrari the 365 Daytona was the last of that great old breed that was king of the mountain so to speak. The Kings were now the mid-rears.

However the Front engined Grand Tourer's Became something really special in part because of their link to the past. They are Beautiful and have Class.

Now we are taking another major step forward with the mid-rear hyper cars the gap is only going to grow and then you have the EVs once weight is reduced it will create another huge gap. My 2 cent is sadly its time to accept the gap has grown again. Supercars Front an Rear are already too powerful for the road. weight, traction, Handling and aerodynamics are the keys to harnessing that power. The Mid-rear is the better of the layouts to do that.

To me Front engined Grand Tourer's are beautiful cars. Where mid-rears are Extreme / Exotic cars. each have their place. So based on that, I say so what if your Grand Tourer's can't foot it against a mid-rear hyper car. I would prefer to have style and class when driving a Grand Tourer. They are still a high performance machine. We are on the road where style and class beats race track performance. Sadly we are all getting old and change is hard when you get old.

So the choice is a Beautiful road legal supercar (F167) or an Exotic road legal race car (F250) ? Have one or have both each has it Pros and Cons..
All that matters is that you enjoy the experience .. F@&k what anyone else thinks...

Na V12 (Beauty and Sound) vs Turbo and or Hybrid V12 (Power)

Just my 2 cents, All the best Simon

 

DB12 exterior is meh except for the interior updates which is a real "update". Also no V12 for aston martin GTs from here on then which is a shame(I don't really like V8s), so it's up to ferrari to capitalize on one of the last GT cars with a V12 with the upcoming F167. I just hope they do not botch it

 

I ask myself why an elegant, beautiful and, if needed, comparably still beastly grand tourer with 800++ hp and 12 pots should be a car for posers only?
Come on, take it and experience a (your) hilly countryside. Or make it your company when you spend your vacation 300 miles from home.
Hopefully I am still able to buy and drive more of those wonderful species some decades from now.

 

While I agree the direct/head on view of the dash is nice in the Aston, the rest is a mess. It looks like a completely different design team did the door, nothing is consistent or fluid in the cabin. The flip is I love the feeling of sitting in the 812 with a beautiful analogue tach, thick steering wheel (I much prefer to the Roma/sf90 wheel feel), round vents, etc etc. It’s special to me and it’s 100% ferrari. If I had to give up all but one, the GTS would be the keeper. The f8 is great, the electrics are interesting and comfortable but the 812 is, imho, a special car. I may be one of the older guys now that I am 51, which does feel a little weird, but i am happy to represent the geriatrics and will try to be first in line to get the F167

 

What we have to admit today is that Ferrari is another brand today, and one that is no longer aimed at the minority enthusiasts that we are, but at a large majority of car consumers.
Don't forget that Ferrari is not floated on the stock exchange like Porsche under the label "car manufacturer", but as a "luxury product"!
In this context, there is no reason to make cars that meet our expectations, since the badge and the hp will be enough to fill the vast majority...
If we add to that the absence of brand culture and automotive culture, quite simply, of the managers, well...we get the current result.
I don't forget by the standards, but strategically, on the product level, it was possible to do differently by protecting the V12 NA and the central rear V8 NA, by adding a hybridization without the turbos, even if it means losing artificial and useless hp. ..But that's another debate.
In this environment, 167 is a gift for us, and certainly the last in the current state of affairs.
There is more HP than necessary, so it is the improvements in terms of architecture and design that will be essential.
It's simple and modern, like the Roma or the Monza can be, and it will age well, because the elements allowing to date it are minimal... But again, it's not a Roma, and the designers present here will understand when I say that the Roma is style, while 167 is a kind of concept.
There remains the problem of the digital interior ... the negative point with which it will be necessary to deal ... or not ...

 

In an age where you can customize any vehicle to your liking in the aftermarket world, wheels, exhausts, tunes, body kits… I wonder why full interior makeovers are almost non-existent

 

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