Max Verstappen

Ham has plenty of spare time.

He doesn't have a wife/partner/child.

 

Wow...my "thick" skull somehow figured out how to type "IMO" all by myself. You being the busy guy you are, I guess that .3 second lost eats into your time spent smacking around anyone who dares to question you.
Like asking me if Max's dad was better than Michael...brilliant retort.

As far as "why should I". Easy. When you state "in my opinion", it makes for a good conversation, you know, on a forum. Instead, you declare something and if someone disagrees, you attack ("thick skull"...really?) and have an argument instead. Witness where this has gone.

 

You're being (deliberately) obtuse. Putting IMO everywhere is just stupid.

Maybe you want to limit the forum so only facts can be spoken? You realize your reply is to a statement that Mick is the son of the greatest F1 driver in recent times. Lewis doesn't have a son, so he's automatically ruled out anyways. Any other driver coming close ''in recent times"?

Why should I bother even entering an argument with you about a statement so incredibly silly that literally only exists from your side to cause further arguments? Since you only bothered posting it to me the only conclusion is that your actively searching for an argument anyways, as you don't tell anyone else to write ''imo'' after any statement. It's a forum. Anything that is not a fact ''in my opinion'' is implied, I don't know why you insist on it needing to be put behind it.

 

Yeah I'm sorry.

Lewis is the most disadvantaged driver of all times, it's a wonder he doesn't race with a disability badge.

 

And now an actual serious reply:

Max's junior career was sponsored by his dad and small local sponsors. He then went to F3 again on the time of smaller sponsors. Halfway through the season he got the attention of every single F1 team bar Ferrari (that came a year later). See here Max's car in belgium before F1 teams approached him:

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A bidding war started with the top F1 teams instantly making any offer from smaller teams pointless: Mercedes and Red Bull where the 2 big teams doing their bidding. Merc offered immediate sponsorship, F2 the following year, then F1 with Williams the year after. Red Bull saw the deal slipping away so made a HUGE offer: Immediate sponsorship, 2x F1 FP1 runs and a guaranteed deal with Toro Rosso for 2015. See here his car directly after signing the deal:
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Not long into the 2015 season Max received an offer from every single team to drive for them. Even Ferrari. Red Bull gave a guaranteed 3 year deal and a move to the top team when ready. Kvyat's early 2016 failings gave them a chance and put Max in...a huge risk but paid off pretty well.

The point is, no, Max did not receive the same backing/sponsorship from Red Bull to help him through the junior ranks. He was already there, and only had the RB backing from about the halfway point of his F3 season. Not through karting or anything like that.

 

Thanks for verifying this. The exposure and attention Max was getting, due to his dad setting up his early career, and his talent is obviously different compared to Lewis early years.
Yeah so my point remains, driver A who has a dad f1 driver has more advantage than driver B who doesn't. I can't believe I'm stating this agian. such a duuhh moment

 

LH giving Max a nice credit -

Hamilton: Verstappen can "absolutely" break my F1 records
Seven-time Formula 1 world champion Lewis Hamilton reckons that Red Bull rival Max Verstappen can “absolutely” break his record of 103 grand prix victories.

 

I normally agree with a lot of what you say, but here I'll deviate. I'd say Hamilton has never been that popular with some segments of F1 followers, especially here on FCHAT. Overall, while his popularity has diminished since he hasn't been winning, he has always been, and still is massively popular. Many people, here especially, don't like his popularity on social media, which I always find ironic as FCHAT and other forums are social media. But there's no doubt he's the biggest 'celebrity' F1 has had since at least MSC. Like him or loathe him, he's a massively popular 'star' who's name is recognized far beyond F1, more so than any other current driver in any series. This is no defence, or condemnation, of his driving, just comments on his popularity.

Since this is the Mxx thread, I'll add Max comments. Max is currently riding high, not just because of his cars performance, but he's matured as a driver too. His talent and raw pace has always been there, but the difference now is not just the car, but his driving, race craft, race management, and decision making have all come together. Too often in his early years he tried too many low low percentage passes, and when they went inevitably wrong, it was everyone elses fault. He's past that. He's in his golden zone, a bit like Hammy in the teens, Vettle in the blown difuser era, MSC around the turn of the century, Prost and Senna in the mid 80's, etc. etc. The car, driver, the drivers mental drive and toughness are all peaking together. I don't think anyone would argue that Max is at the top of his game, and as good as Alonso and LCH are, even in the same car, I think this year Max would beat them both this year. I don't think LCH has recovered mentally since losing in 21 with the stupid Masi call and the joke of Spa race. No doubt last year he was out driven by Lando, but this year he's starting to get his mental mojo back. If Mercedes can get back on top, and Aston can maintain their competitiveness for more than one year at a time, we could see a great 2024. Sorry, I just don't put Chuckles LeClerc in the same category as Max, Lewis, or Fred. And I like both LeClerc and Sainz more than those three.

 

Nope. I just want you to grow up.

 

Why are we talking about crapilton on max thread....we all know he sucks, so let him suck on his own thread....

 

Both got investment based on their capabilities.

Once again you write Max getting sponsorship off ''because his dad was an F1 driver''. It was purely based on talent. His dad being a useless, failed F1 driver pretty much no input whatsoever (on him getting RB backing). Training yes, inherited ability no.

Duhh moment indeed.

 

Yet in your statement before it you wanted "IMO" to be added to each statement ''to make good conversation".

The mind boggles.

 

I think this is what is so extraordinary about Lewis Hamilton.

He was a black kid from a broken home with no motorsports family background and no money, and yet he (and his Dad) though talent, hard-work and charm got to the very top of the sport (x7). In his first year in F1 he almost won the world championship with a universally admired (at least for his driving ability) double WC team mate. You really couldn't make it up.

Max is a great talent too, but he was always born to be a driver. Both his Dad and his Mum were talented drivers, and he was brought up in and around the sport. They had the money and the contacts to get him started. After that of course, it was all down to him.

I can think of two major reasons why HAM is disliked by so many; it's a not-very-pleasant aspect of our current world. The other reason is success - every successful person attracts their fair share of haters. But the one thing he is is inspirational: he's an idol for any black or poor kid that is determined to succeed. He's the proof that it can be done, and we should all celebrate that.

 

I have to disagree on this. Failed: yes, but certainly not useless.
Jos was a fast F1 driver but his emotions often were stronger than his driving skills....
Starting as a rookie at a top team (Benetton) next to a brilliant driver (Michael Schumacher) did not help. After that he only drove for back marker teams.

 

Ham got everything he needed for his chosen career, courtesy of his tenacious and supportive father. Anthony also had a connect to Ron Dennis who became Ham's mentor and backer.

What a fantastic platform to start from.

 

I agree, he's better than being given credit for.

Perhaps I should've added that compared to sons of other F1 racing drivers, he's one of the very few that actually exceeded his dads' accomplishments. That's how this whole argument came to be, as if having an F1 racing driver dad somehow gives you this amazing talent from birth and all you need to do is get a car and the world chucks money at you as titles begin to roll in.

I think my argument was actually quite reasonable, that you can't compare the advantages that both Lewis and Max enjoyed, Lewis being sponsored by Merc/Mclaren early on with their enormous network and Max getting coahing from his dad: They where both given a headstart (vast network vs direct experience), but both drivers needed to work with that information to get ahead, and both drivers' information was so vastly diffrerent it's impossible to quantify it.

Looking at sons of F1 drivers we have a few examples:

Gilles vs Jacques: Gilles was certainly the more talented driver but no championships (premature death).
Graham vs Damon: No argument that Graham was the better driver.
Jan Magnussen vs Kevin: Jan didn't spend a lot of time in F1 so hard to compare really.
Nelson vs Nelson Jr: Jr received a lot of coaching from his dad. His dad definitely not short of funds with immense wealth and as a 3x WDC, not short of advice either nor connections. Nelson junior factually speaking was pretty useless.
Michael vs Ralf: Ralf certainly not without talent but it's clear who was the better one.
Michael vs Mick: Does it need explaining?
Ralf vs David: Despite great connections, wealth and coaching, great teams and a very long time in F3 and lower series, he's had one win and one 2nd place, for the rest in the other 4 seasons lucky to even get a point.
Ayrton vs Bruno: Bruno (nephew) was coached by Ayrton until his death. Vast wealth and arguably the most famous name in F1 and plenty of time still didn't get him anywhere.

Being the son of a racing driver, even incredibly famous/successful ones, is no guarantee for success. Especially looking at both Schumachers' kids it really shows to me that successful dads with fantastic wealth is no guarantee for success at all. Yet the (rather pointless) argument is made by our local oracle that absolutely it was the best upbringing ever and seemingly the sole reason for success, another point in his dungeon for Lewis I guess. I swear Lewis fans contribute enormously to why he's seen as such a polarizing character. It's their way or...their way.

 

Add Ecclestone as well who was instrumental to Dennis picking up the phone and get him on board.

 

Max started with a dad who was a highly qualified racing driver but without any significant money or sponsorship.
Lewis started with the opposite: powerful sponsorship but a dad without any racing experience.

Without TALENT neither of them would have made it into F1, let alone be successful there.

 

Bingo, that's the long and short of it!

Quantifying what was a greater asset in that time impossible.

 

You could fill the dots in that sentence with actor, singer, businessman, politician, musician, artist, athlete, etc ...

In most cases, the offspring cannot emulate the progenitor.

Probably that talent is not in the genes.

 

Lewis Hamilton had to break the glass ceiling for acceptance in racing circles; Max didn't have too.

That's the difference.

 

Why did he need break glass ceilings?

 

Seems like he's spending his time with Shakira at the moment. Good taste.
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I don't think that's true, AFAIK HAM met Ron Dennis through his racing.

 

Because he was black and poor.