FORMULA 1 MSC CRUISES BELGIAN GRAND PRIX 2023 - Spa....Race.... ▄▀▄▀▄▀ SPOILERS ▄▀▄▀▄▀

How will they cope. Such adversity lol

 

IDK where that absurd number of 100hp is coming from, but regardless, what we saw yesterday wasn't simply just Max being better. The pace he had in hand over Perez was 100% evidence that he had something different aboard his race car.

You don't start 5th, then cruise up the field, pass your teammate in an identical car, then finish a full pitstop ahead of them. What Max did yesterday should not have been obtainable for him. He's the most talented driver in the field, imho, but not to that extent.

When Max exited the pits on lap 15, he was 2.5 seconds behind Perez. He closed the gap to within 9 tenths by the end of the lap. When he went by Perez it was as if the latter didn't even try to defend at all. He didn't even try to fight the lead.

I don't buy it's all Max. Sorry. Max had a spicy engine, while Perez clearly had an engine from an older pool.

Aero no doubt plays apart in Red Bull's advantage, and I'm not questioning Max being outright better than Perez. That's obvious. But the Honda PU is the best unit on the grid. I've suspected it for some time, and yesterday confirmed it.

 

So...any evidence or just tin foil hat theories?

Is there any valid reason for Red Bull to do this? Surely if you're going to give anyone a spicy engine, it would be Perez, in case something happens to Max he can then carry the win.

It makes zero sense to disadvantage Max's teammate. None. It'll only hurt themselves in the long run:

1) Max turns around and says you better pay me 5 million a weekend
2) top teams offer Max 5 million per weekend if RB doesn't want to pay up. RBR is then stuck with Perez and...yuki?

There's every possibility that Perez was simply was managing his pace and Max was not as much. He knows he stands zero chance at passing Max on track, perhaps he was hoping for a late SC and wanted the freshest tyres in such a case, either to defend from Leclerc or attack Max.

EDIT:

I just went through the data of the last few GP's, sectors etc for quali too and where everything is normal, I see zero evidence of a spicy engine. Theory doesn't hold up.

McLaren - fansite of the Formula 1 team (mclarenf-1.com)

 

Perez without DRS though.
(1) Formula Data Analysis (@FDataAnalysis) / X (twitter.com)

end of the chart shows normalized laps between the drivers. I don't think Perez had a single DRS lap. It's identical to Max.

 

I just argued the reasons I believe support the thesis that Red Bull have a more powerful PU. I'm not going to restate simply because you don't like the idea. And there's no reason to be rude and call the idea "tinfoil hat".

There's plenty of reasons for Red Bull to do it. Max is the better driver. He likely has a clause in his contract that he gets the best PU's, gearboxes, and upgrades to the car. Lots of world championships get such treatment at teams.

If you believe Perez was just managing his pace, IDK what to tell you. There is NO reason for Perez to layback to that degree. No driver would.

Earlier in the season, we saw Perez could maintain a defensive gap ahead of Max in both Jeddah and in Baku. He kept Max behind him for almost the entire race in Baku. Now, suddenly, Perez can't even stay ahead of Max for two laps yesterday. Something has clearly changed, and it isn't whatever lame excuse is being offered that Perez has gotten this bad, or that the car is just designed for Max. Those things alone do not explain why a driver with supposedly equal equipment, who was previously able put up a good fight against his teammate for grand prix wins, suddenly is getting passed like he's standing still, no way to defend at all, and then being left a full pitstop worth of time in the distance, after the teammate started 5th.

Max is normally a good 3-5 tenths faster than Perez. He was putting out times that were a full second faster yesterday. Even Max ain't doing that without something special. Occam's razor points to a PU mode that was higher than Perez's, and the latter nursing an engine that was probably much older and degraded.

The thesis that Red Bull's advantage on the straights is partly or mostly Honda power related shouldn't be so taboo to suggest.

 

Real quick on Carlos and Oscar... I don't see how this is Oscar's fault. I just saw screenshots where Carlos wasn't anywhere near the racing line. He was way inside over the curb and squashed Oscar. "He shouldn't have been there" isn't a valid excuse to me. He was there and you have to leave him room. I don't think he was far ahead or anything. He just cut over... really steep over the curbs and smashed him into the wall.

 

Here's the math on what's needed for a spicier engine;
https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/149169125/

Does Max have the better engine by a few hp over Perez? I wouldn't be surprised. Even at this level there's a small difference between identical units.

Perez had every reason to drive as slow as he did the moment Max passed him, as I already layed out. But on top of that, add in putting less stress on the engine as well, making it last longer or be able to use higher power modes later in the season to the rest of the competition or even Max.

I was watching the 2007 British GP and the moment Alonso got by Lewis he was lapping a second a lap quicker than him for the rest of the GP, on identical (minus 1 lap) strategy.

So the notion that Max is a second a lap quicker on a really long lap is not impossible.

Every supposed F1 expert puts the Merc, Honda and Ferrari as pretty much on par with each other, within the margin of error. Only the Renault is vastly down (30 to 40hp).

The math suggest that it's aero efficiency for Red Bull that makes them fast.

 

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So Red Bull is going against Checo like they did with Gasly?
I don’t believe this for one second.
Seems like some here are misled by Max juvenile apparence..
He’s just doing things with a race car that others simply can’t..

 

I imagine there would be paddock outrage if Red Bull, having lobbied for an engine freeze, have secretly punked everybody in having a more powerful PU that gives them a massive advantage.

The problem is that Perez was previously able to to muster a defense against Max, but now he can't even stay in front of him for two lousy laps. Something is different now.

Yes, Max is faster. I'm not contesting that, and I have nothing against him having an advantage. I'm just sayin' ... yesterday looked like he had something more.

I'm also not contesting that Newey is a wizard at aero. However, while some of the Red Bull pace can be explained by aero, there is no way that Honda engine isn't contributing to at least half of the straight line speed advantage. Putting it all down on Newey just doesn't cut it at this point.

 

Given that Oscar was behind Carlos entering the turn, I doubt Carlos even say Piastri dive inside, given that he was busy avoiding Hamilton -- who was squeezing Sainz over.
Three wide through the corner doesn't go.

In fairness, Oscar might not have been aware of Hamilton, either.
--- Although from behind, Oscar would have had a better view of Ham than Ham had of Oscar.

 

Suuuure. Max is just that much of a god behind the wheel that he can start 5th, then drive away from his teammate to a pitstop worth of an interval, all without anything special.

And Hamilton passed everybody in Brazil 21' purely by racing hard.
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I see where you're coming from but I really don't believe that Red Bull/Honda have *that* much of an engine advantage over Ferrari/Mercedes. General concensus by those in the paddock is pretty much even stevens between the top 3 power units, just renault years behind as per usual. On top of that...Horner openly advocating to allow renault to catch up.

DRS advantage is huge here. Perez had none, and Max did...he's been consistently the fastest in S2.

Max has quite often had a huge gap on his teammate, it's nothing new...not sure why now questions are asked. It was the same for Lewis, Alonso, Vettel, Schumacher...

 

To back this up, engine component used by hungary:

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doesn't include Max's gearbox change but neither Red Bull driver had anything else changed.

Nothing spicy going on. Doesn't support the data from any race. If anything if Max did have a spicy engine for a while we'd see it in the data v Perez and certainly in component use.

 

Keep in mind that Spa is the longest circuit(7km) and fast but not the fastest. Compare Max and Checo sector times.
Max and RBR is a formidable combination of driver, designer, constructor, strategy, preparation and execution. They are crushing it.

See above.

+1 agree

 

I know this is difficult to admit for a lot of people ,including myself, but I have no others rational explanations..
Fuoriclasse like they said in Italian is just this kind of driver.
Perhaps 10 drivers comparable with him in all Formula One history.

 

Perez is not happy with the RB19 since Baku but Max is always happy with the car on EVERY kind of tracks and meteo forecasts..
Slow track, city track, front limited circuit, rear limited track, quick corner, medium speed etc …
He’s outstanding everywhere without a single mistake until now..
Don’t get me wrong I would LOVE to see Charles competing against him on a fairly basis but I’m pretty certain now he wouldn’t stand a chance against him for a WDC.
Sadly.

 

+1
I am just wondering which other "combination" will end up beating them, and how long it will take for that to happend.
I think Max and RBR are safe for 2024 and 2025 too.

 

Leaving room on the inside is all very good - except that in this case Carlos was also managing the fact he had a car on his left... this rule of "leaving space" is not really working when there are 3 cars (the most external car will not leave space for two cars on the inside)

 

I can never recall Schumacher or anybody else starting so far behind a teammate, then on pure pace, come through the field, pass them, and then open up an pitstop worth of an interval, all in one race.

You don't have to be some Max hater to find the pace yesterday very suspicious. I happen to like him. I acknowledge he can absolutely beat his teammate in a straight up fight. But to be over a second faster, lap after lap is strange. What's even stranger is that when Max passed Perez, the latter couldn't even stay within DRS range in less than a lap. Perez couldn't even fight back. Earlier in the year it wasn't like this, and people just saying "Well, Max is good everywhere!" is just not cutting it with me.

Yes, yes. Max attacks the corners aggressively, but this looked like pure pace within the car itself to me. It looked like more power, and it looked like Perez was aware it was coming, and so he didn't even bother to fight it.

IMHO, people are looking at the Red Bull pace all wrong. I don't think the sidepods and floor are where they get the magic of their pace. Obviously, that's part of it, but I've always felt that the suspension geometry and the PU are together the force behind Red Bull's straight line speed. It's 50% one, 50% the other.

I'm not crapping on Max or Red Bull. He's entitled to the best equipment being the star driver, and none of what I'm saying takes away from that.

 

I don't think starting P6 is that much of a hinderance, especially with that car. P4 by end of the kemmel straight.

Starting far back from your teammate in those days was a lot more unlikely given that quali was so different.

I did have a quick look at the 1995 season and out of 5 randomly selected races that Schumacher finished, the slimmest margin he had over his teammate was 50 seconds.

You can find it suspicious all you like but not a word from active or former racing drivers. Not a peep from Perez. The extra power simply doesn't stack up given the practically identical speed traps they have and using the same aero packages. Max is very good but surely he's not so good to hide a power advantage by methodically backing off exactly where the speed traps are...

The math suggests that it's aero efficiency for Red Bull's speed advantage. Not sure how suspension is involved in getting top speed at all except for contributing to corner speed and aiding traction in accelerating and braking.