Hamilton deserves more respect

Take breather man, now your just making stuff up. No way Merc was that fast all those years especially 2017, 18 and 21. You're gonna stress yourself out trying make 30 seconds exist in two different forms.

 

Well, we found out in 2019 by Max Verstappen at COTA that Ferrari was cheating. The question becomes for how long Ferrari was cheating? By 2020, Ferrari dropped off the map in the WCC standings due to the introduction of the 2nd fuel flow sensor.

So it's all relative.

Nonetheless, the longer the domination by 30 seconds, the better no? Especially, if the FIA and the rules set by the FIA help in your domination.

 

So basically you are trying (and failing) to give Max a time frame limit that he can make that statement. You don't find Max statement wrong since you say Merc had a longer advantage. Do you find fault with Sir Lewis Hamilton's statement? lf so how long does RB have to dominate before you condemn Max of saying he can win in the Merc? What's his time limit? And why do you give Max the privilege of a time frame anyway?

 

The difference between Mercedes and RedBull is Mercedes had it easier to dominate and a longer duration to dominate.

RedBull doesn't have it that easier to dominate nor that longer to dominate. Mercedes just built a crappy car for 2 years(2022 and 2023) but they're not held by the rules in building a crappy car.

 

Who isn't saying that 60% of the grid would at least be winners in the 2023 Red Bull? Probably champions. Sergio Perez likely represents the lower portion of the top 60% in 2023, and he would be winning the championship. I doubt anyone would be as dominant as Max, but quite a few would be dominant none the less.

 

So buy your logic, Sir Lewis Hamilton could have said that I can win in the RB during the Vettel years and you would see no wrong with him saying this?

 

Right, I agree with you . All I'm saying is that Max is not condemned when he say it.

 

I would agree with that statement.

I could see Max winning as well in the RedBull during the Vettel years too.

 

I'll take your word for it since I haven't seen what LH said or what Max said or what the fans are saying about it. It's believable to me.

If Lewis went on saying he would be winning or dominating if he was driving this year's Red Bull, he would be 100% correct (as long as Max isn't his teammate), but I think people would still speak up because he had such a dominant car for so long. Any driver that didn't didn't drive a Mercedes between 2014 and 2020 had good reason to complain and make claims that most drivers would win in that car. Fans sympathized with it because it was true and because it went on for so long we were all so tired of it. If Lewis starts complaining about the same now, he won't get the same sympathy because he enjoyed that kind of dominance for long enough, now it's time for him to start winning races without having such a dominant car. A handful of other drivers, including Verstappen was able to pick up a win here and there during the Mercedes era. Lewis complaining about Red Bull having a dominant car for half a season because he can't win will not be as easy to hear since other drivers did it while Lewis had a dominant car for the better part of 8 years.

A similar thing would happen if Bottas started complaining that he wasn't winning races because he doesn't have a good enough car. We would all be like, dude you had the best car for 5 years, you had your chance. Now if Alonso said the same thing, we would all agree and talk about how much championships he might have won if he were in a dominant car too.

 

Link to proof that the M-B had 100hp more than others...

 

Didn't Red Bull win 4 WDC's in a row?
Yep, there it is...Sebastian Vettel 2010-2013

So, by my count, M-B has 7 WDC since 2010 and Red Bull has 6, but probably 7 by the end of this year. As a matter of fact, the ONLY teams that have won WDC's since 2010 ARE Red Bull and M-B.
But all you guys talk about is how big Lewis' advantage was during the M-B glory period...what about Vettel? What about Max?
It can't just be the "car" for Lewis and not give equal credit to the "car" for Vettel and Max.

 

You're thinking this inane "well, anybody could win in THAT car" is anything other than a mental circle jerk?
Theoretical? That's a laugh.
Most "theories" have their basis in facts and proof. Max saying he could win in the 2019 M-B is probably correct (but it's a stupid comment). He'll never know nor will we so why bring it up. Let's argue over something that CANNOT happen.

Here you go:
My "theory" is that Lewis would win the 2023 WDC if he was driving the RB19. Of course, he can't drive the RB19 so it's just a stupid "theory", based on nothing but puffery.

Why not just give credit to Vettel, Lewis, and Max for great driving, consistency, and not killing the car/tires and staying out of trouble. THAT'S what champions do.

 

Prior to the hybrid formula, and all the restrictions that came with it, yes.

2014 was a turning point, if you remember that did put all the clocks back to zero.

 

I remember thinking the Red Bull era of the V8s was horrible, but now I would love to go back to that time when there was at least some competition. 2010 and especially 2012 were amazing. Just because RBR and Vettel won the championships doesn't mean those season's were not competitive.

Most got sick of M-B winning 8 WCC's in a row, but we have to admit that 2017 and 2018 were good seasons in general... at least for the most part. 2014-16, 19 and 20 were painful for the lack of competition. Any fan of F1 should agree with that.

 

"Mercedes F1 Turbo Engine to have 100bhp advantage in 2014?"--->grandprix247.com


Also, MB built 3 engines prior to the turbo-hybrid era. One was indestructible. The 2nd was too fragile. The 3rd was in between. All 3 engines were for the turbo-hybrid formula.

 

You presuming, incorrectly, that I think, “well, anybody could win in THAT car,” is creating a straw man.

Lewis Hamilton is the one saying he would be giving Max Verstappen a run for his money in a theoretical matchup in the 2023 Red Bull, not me, so I ask again, is he also a tool who lacks imagination for engaging in rhetoric that you seem to find so irritating? Remember, those are your words, not mine.

Furthermore, perhaps you can discuss and debate topics minus the tiresome mocking tone and name-calling?

 

In fact, there's a token system working actively against the Red Bull.

Not Red Bull's fault that the other teams keep developing the wrong concept.

+1 As has been said for years now, say one thing that doesn't depict Lewis as a deity, and you're automatically a ''hater'' (and most notably so by a user here that has been slinging that term around for years but very recently claimed that it's one of the worst things you can call someone....make of that what you will)

 

Renault claimed 600hp from their engine and 160 from the ERS.

Mercedes claimed 700 for the engine and 160 for the ERS

The links inside are long dead now but from in-period:

Forum · F1 · RaceFans



Dominant Mercedes hid engine advantage in 2014 – Lowe (f1i.com)

Paddy Lowe admitted that to avoid scrutiny from the FIA, the engines were essentially in idle mode.

Revealed: How Mercedes' packaging of their turbo engine has given them the edge | F1 News (skysports.com)

Trackside reports at the time reported 50hp advantage over the Ferrari, 70 over the Renaults. They use GPS data and very clever accoustic devices to get a very accurate picture of whose doing what (before this, F1 teams used the same accousing devices to estimate how much fuel rival teams used in quali to remarkable accuracy).

However, that was with the engines turned down for Merc.


Comparing powerunits, understanding early season issues and the real reason why Mercedes AMG F1 are ahead - SomersF1 - The technical side of Formula One

Very used the ERS to supplement the ICE which resulted in rapid power decline.

 

This sounds like alot of excuses to cover Max for saying it. Why did he feel the need to say it if we already know Mercedes is dominant? Why could he not kept it to himself?
Just like Max said anybody can win in the Mercedes. Why is he not saying anybody can win in the RB?

 

Its more than the engine. Look through the field and notice customer engine teams are not at the top.

 

Do you really believe that the M-B customer engine teams were running the engine in the same mode as M-B itself?

Remember the phrase "party mode"?

 

Yes. Party mode was used by Williams too.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/russell-mercedes-found-big-net-gain-without-party-mode/

 

Grosjean found out his engine(Mercedes) was limited due to the engine modes.

You wanna link for this too?

 

Find a link of Russell saying it too, because Russell is saying he has the same mode.

 

Absolutely: 2010 and 2012 were very disputed, and very interesting. Nothing could be taken for granted until the very end.
To be honest, 2002 and 2004, even if great Ferrari years, were a bit boring as far as the fight for the title was concerned...

Rgds