430 Engine Issues - 1,500 mile road trip - tail of dragon

Hey All,

2007 F430. 14.5k miles. Well maintained.

I was doing a tail of the dragon road trip. On day 2 I got a check engine. Pulled over, read the code, it was for a misfire, deleted it to monitor and continue driving. About an hour or two later, after running pretty hot and hard for most of it, my check engine light came back on but this time flashing. I started losing power. Immediately pulled over.

This time the codes were for both left and right bank camshaft correlation and camshaft position as well as misfires on both left and right banks.

The car would not go into gear. And it made a whop whop whop whop running noise at low RPMs. I cleaned the MAFs and throttle bodies and the 10 electrical connectors in the intake manifold tunnel. No fix.

I tow it home and then:

Cut open oil filter, no issues. Drain oil, magnetic plug is clean.

I found the passenger side exhaust camshaft position sensor’s wire had some scoring on it. I just replaced it and now the car is running better, but still at low RPMs and seems to slowly idle down and want to die. Tach reads zero or near zero. I tried it twice, second time after ensuring battery was fully charged. Each time the battery was disconnected beforehand for 15 + min. The whop whop whop is gone though.

It was #1 sensor I replaced. The new part had #7 sticker tag on it. However, the bosh part number was the same. I assume on Ferrari parts lists/diagrams that the different Ferrari part number correlates to the sticker tag but the actual part for the intake and exhaust camshaft sensors are the same.

I’m going to get it in a diagnostic tool on it next.

The wire that had scoring on it could have been rubbing on the main oil line. Think it’s hot enough to melt through the wire? It also appears the wire could have been pinched at some point Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login .

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About 4k miles on new spark plugs


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After replacing the sensor, it seems the engine runs for a split second longer after I shut it down and pull the key out. When I shut down the RPMs slight jump right when the key is turned off and the engine runs about a 1/2 second after the key has been turned off and being pulled out.


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Someone has been careless when working on the engine. The cuts in the wire are not burns, but either chaffing or from the cable being trapped under something.

If the Bosch part number matches then the sensor should be OK. Blue is for one bank and yellow the other. Cam phase sensors are the same type on each bank.

At this point I'd be looking for more shoddy workmanship - check the cam phase sensors on the other bank.

P.S. never run an engine with these kind of symptoms.

 

The damage to wire must have been pretty old, before my time, so it’s weird problems developed now.

I ran the engine each time after doing what I thought would be a repair, for <2 min. The first ~4 times it was just a whop whop whop whop noise. New sensors and it ran much better (maybe for 10 seconds) but Tach read ~500 RPMs then slowly lowered. I shut down. Made sure battery was charged, then started again, only 5 seconds: ran better than before the new sensors but this time Tach showed 0 RPMs and I shutdown.

Update, Oh f…

I put a launch tool up to it. The camshaft codes read absent (maybe because engine was off, but I assumed they were absent from running on the last two starts with no codes), no codes present. I go to start and, clunking and thud noises and no start. Just a 1 second crank.

Flywheel has some scoring on it. I just put a new clutch and flywheel on it, 1,000 miles ago. So now I’m going to: borescope cylinders, borescope clutch pack, and compression checks.

If* it’s an internal engine issue, my only guess is poor fuel quality from a rural gas station I used 1 hour before the issues arose.

I find it very odd how it ran with zero internal engine issue symptoms like tinging noises or metal in filter. Then the new sensor made it run better, but albeit still not perfect. And now it all of a sudden escalated rapidly to utterly terrible sounding and not starting.


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This was an aftermarket clutch and flywheel pack.


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Tachometer readings are usually generated by one of the crank sensors, not cam sensors.

What do the codes actually mean? They use the expression crank and cam position correlation.

EDIT: looking at the F430 wiring diagrams, the tachometer signal seems to come from the RH Bank.

Have any of your crank sensors been changed (and shimmed properly) at some point?

 

That looks like the starter motor bendix has damaged the flywheel teeth, seen this on a diesel generator where the starter motor was turning before it was fully engaged with the flywheel. The bendix is usually harder than the flywheel teeth, have you fitted a new starter motor recently and does it have the correct bendix fitted to suit the flywheel teeth profile

 

Hopefully just a starter getting stuck.

I think that what we're looking at above is the teeth (sometimes called pulse pickup) for the CPS rather than the flywheel ring gear for the starter. The gap in the teeth is intentional as it gives the ECU a reference to determine TDC.

There does look to be swarf on the pickup teeth which is certainly not ideal. If the starter has been loose for some time and creating swarf from the ring gear then some of it could very likely be stuck to the CPS (they are magnetic), and affecting the signal. In sequential EFI engines the crank and cam phase are used to provide more accurate injection.

The other possibility is that the aftermarket flywheel was machined incorrectly and the CPS is grinding away on the pickup teeth. The teeth should be much neater than how they are in the photos above.

Either way - pull the CPS sensors and have a look at them.

 

You can dress up the flywheel by removing the starter motor and use a Dremel through the starter motor hole to dress off the damage. We cleaned up a 3 foot diameter one on a diesel to get it running- took a full 24 hours and a huge bag of grinding wheels.

 

I missed the fact the flywheel had 2 sets of teeth. Big diameter is probably the ring gear for the starter and the others are for a pulse pick up i am thinking. The ones i have seen have a sensor screwed into the casing, you screw them in until they touch, then turn them back say 1 turn so you have an airgap.. If it has come loose, has it screwed itself in and touched the teeth ?

 

A couple pics of mine, the cable with the blue tape is in line with the smaller damaged teeth, so i think that is the pulse pick up, other pic is mine and no damage. Best to remove the pickup and look to see if damage on the end. Held in with an allen screw
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Misfire detection is calculated from the flywheel, those pictures of the damaged flywheel teeth is concerning and where I would be focused..
Like you mentioned you replaced the clutch assy and flywheel, I remember your clutch being non ferrari oem but is it the same for the flywheel.?
The damage shown in the pictures looks like poor alignment of starter motor engagement and flywheel teeth...do we have metal fragments finding their way to the engine RPM sensor and flywheel airgap causing your misfire detection.?

The chaffed harness for the cam position sensor has a role to play here providing you can see bare wire that could have been grounding out..this is used for advancing or retarding of camshaft.

 

the smaller diameter one is aligned with the pickup on the casing, so that is not for the starter motor

 

There is the answer..what your saying is that is the portion of the flywheel that gives the ECU the RPM signal correct.?

 

yes i think it is , if he had a new flywheel recently- i wonder if they removed the pickup before they fitted it. The clearance between the end of the pickup and the teeth can be 1 turn of thread pitch. easy to damage it, if you leave it in place, hence the damage

 

From those pictures its very hard for me to believe this is caused by a incorrect airgap...mechanical interference of any sensor that is monitoring a flywheel typically shows up on the bottom of the sensor and outer surface of the flywheel...if you look close there is a wear pattern inside the valley of the tooth...that is why I questioned starter motor engagement.

 

the starter motor ring gear is a long way away. first thing to do here is pull the pickup out and inspect the end of it for damage. those damaged teeth are square cut for a pickup. the starter motor ring gear will have flanked sides

 

Awesome suggestion! I will pull the pickup and look now.


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Yes, both clutch and flywheel were aftermarket and the sizing was slightly different than stock.

I will pull the timing sensor on the gearbox and see.

Great suggestions.


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I did not! You may be onto something


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The 360 and 430 are supposed to be the same so this should apply.

I just spent a lot of time staring into the inspection cavity of my transaxle and I know a couple of things about the flywheel "toothed" gear.

1. Nothing engages it. Nothing should touch it.
2. The teeth are rectangular, tooth tops are 0.263", valleys are 0.2565" wide and 0.144" deep.
3. There are 63(ish?) teeth and one spot with a blank.

I didn't have to delve any deeper into the thing. Looking at the shape of that toothed gear for the OP indicates it was contacted by something hard and unforgiving. The burrs hanging off the teeth indicate it's recent damage, and probably what killed the car. What impacted the toothed gear? Hopefully, it's the easily replaced sensor.

If it was my car, the first thing I'd do is pull the sensor and see if the end has been worn off. It could be the adjustment for the air gap wasn't secured properly and it just moved into the path of the toothed gear and left you on the side of the road. It could be that the sensor itself is still working but coated with shavings from the gear and that caused the failure.

<opinion>
A first try might be to change out the sensor and then carefully, oh so carefully, file off all the burrs from the gear through the inspection cavity and reset the air gap. It might work, but unfortunately, your transaxle is probably going to have to come out and the clutch job repeated with another toothed gear.
</opinion>

I just made this crankshaft lock for the 360 so that's why I have the dimensions. Note how the teeth engage with my lock.
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If the sensor is damaged it will screw up the engine running

 

John: I 100% agree with you what compromised that flywheel...I believe Jake will come back and show us damage to the sensor.
Damaged flywheel sensor and flywheel will give misfire, hard or no starting depending on severity of damage.

 

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Pulse pickup removed. Metal on it. Shows signs of scratches. How is the sensor too supposed to look?


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