Bernie's interview, saying he and Max already knew from the start that Renault cheated, but chose to do nothing.
That is the problem, the 2 guys responsible are out of the FIA or dead. But dors this mean that the entity is no longer responsible for the wrong doing?
No: the entity would indeed be liable over the persons...that is, IF the court accept that the FIA is liable indeed. Which brings us to the competence of the courts: FIA can (theoretically) be responsible only in front of a french court, according to its by-laws. Then, the question of who will stand for FIA: as you would have a full conflict of interests for Stefano Domenicali... Something tells me that this is far from over... Next step is August 29th, date on which we should know if this will go to courts indeed. Rgds
We've seen Governments remain liable even if the offending executives have since moved on. Let's see what the French Courts decide.
Yes, Liberty had nothing to do with it, at the time they had no involvement in f.1. FIA should be solely responsible for what happened should the court find them guilty of anything....
True, but the fact that he admitted Max Mosley, the president of the FIA knew about this, and chose to do nothing, speaks as strong evidence .
Bernie has not admitted anything: he says that he does not remember the interview. Legally speaking, until he certify his sayings by affidavit, under oath, etc... there is no evidence at all. And remember that Bernie has very good lawyers... And even admitting that Bernie would accept to certify his words under oath, well...I don't know if this would bind the FIA, in fact I believe it won't; we need other lawyers here: if this would be in front of a french court, I seem to recall that "you cannot stipulate for a third party", i.e what Bernie says does not bind the FIA, as he was not working for it and was not empowered by it: legally, I believe it would have no consequences for the FIA. If Massa and his lawyers sue the FIA, well...let's see. There are a lot of entengled ties in this story. It will be interesting to follow. Rgds
Here's the link claiming they both knew. https://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/fr/formule-1/ecclestone-revele-la-fia-savait-pour-singapour-2008-massa-aurait-du-etre-titre,179471.html According to him, if the scandal of Singapore 2008 had been managed in time - and it could have been according to his revelations, Felipe Massa would have been titled that year and Lewis Hamilton should have only six world championships to his credit. During that 2008 season - that of Hamilton's first official title - Nelson Piquet Jr deliberately crashed during the Singapore GP, helping his Renault teammate, Fernando Alonso, to win the race thanks to the exit of the safety car at the perfect time. Bernie Ecclestone claims today that he and Max Mosley knew well before the outbreak of the "crashgate" scandal in 2009 that a deliberate accident had occurred. "We decided not to do anything," he reveals. "We wanted to protect the sport and save it from a huge scandal." "That's why I used my influence to persuade my former driver, Nelson Piquet (the father of the Renault driver involved), and told him to shut up for the time being." But had the scandal erupted in 2008, Hamilton ultimately wouldn't have beaten Massa and his Ferrari to a single championship point in the famous Interlagos final. "At the time, there was a rule that a world championship placing was untouchable after the FIA awards ceremony at the end of the year," Ecclestone continued. "So Hamilton got his cup and everything was fine. Case closed." But Ecclestone now believes the Singapore race results should have been overturned by Piquet's deliberate act - giving Massa the title. “We had enough information at the time to investigate the matter,” Ecclestone admits. "According to the statutes, we should have canceled the race in Singapore under these conditions." "It means that this race would never have counted for the championship classification. And Felipe Massa would have become world champion and not Lewis Hamilton." "I'm still sorry for Felipe today. He won the final in his home race in Sao Paulo and did everything right. He was stripped of the title he deserved while Hamilton had all the luck of the world and won his first championship." "Today I would have done things differently. That's why, for me, Michael Schumacher is still the only record holder of seven titles, even if the statistics say otherwise."
I just find it har to believe that Felipe would pursue this if he didn't had a strong chance....i mean, he's not stupid, and he knows many people so i gues he must have been well advised, on what his chances are and the costs of doing it...but i could be wrong...
That is worth exactly nothing in front of a court, and Bernie (and his lawyers) knows it. It would have to be sworn under oath in front of a court...which it hasn't. Legally, Bernie has not admitted anything yet. Bernie might deny, be then summoned in court, and say he didn't remember exactly, so he would be considered "unreliable witness"... And the authority on the Championship was (still is) the FIA, and Bernie wasn't a member of the FIA, so what he might say today (assuming, see above, that he would first accept to confirm it in front of a court...) would be "second rate testimony", as he is not party to the dispute between Massa and the FIA... I don't know what Felipe has in his ammunition box, but I hope that he knows what he is doing...because honestly, this doesn't seem straightforward; at all. As long as you have money, you always find lawyers... Rgds
One day when we will meet, I shall tell you about the day I was summoned as a witness for a Portuguese court in Lisbon... The lawyer who asked me for this was a former portuguese defense minister, I'm sure you know who I am talking about. You never know with the courts. Felipe's lawyers might be paid only on a success fee (although I'm not sure that british lawyers would accept it) Rgds
All this rest on just one statement to the press !! This is hearsay and that's not an admissible testimony that I know. On top of that Ecclestone claims he doesn't remember saying all this, so maybe the media literally invented the whole thing.
I agree. Which is why i keep saying it just doesn't feel right for Massa to pursue this, because it really feels like waste of time.
Make of it what you will.................... Ferrari ‘pushing’ FIA on Singapore 2008 result as Massa pursues legal action Image Unavailable, Please Login Fred Vasseur has confirmed Ferrari is ‘pushing’ the FIA for clarity on the result of the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix and that year’s world championship in the wake of Felipe Massa pursuing legal action. Massa recently sent a Letter Before Claim to FIA president Mohammed Ben Sulayem and F1 chief executive Stefano Domenicali outlining the perceived injustice of what unfolded in 2008, citing he was “a victim of a conspiracy”. The Brazilian missed out on the title that year to Lewis Hamilton by one point, with the result of the Singapore GP impacting the outcome of the championship. Nelson Piquet Jr’s deliberate crash resulted in a victory for Renault team-mate Fernando Alonso. Hamilton was third and early race leader Massa 13th after a pit stop triggered by the incident which led to him pulling away with the fuel hose still attached to his car. Massa’s decision to seek an amendment to the championship result has been sparked by comments earlier this year from former F1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone who said he and former FIA president Max Mosley knew of what had transpired in 2008 before it eventually came to light via comments from Piquet Jr the following year. The eight-page Letter Before Claim highlights the alleged cover-up, with lawyers representing Massa now seeking millions of euros in damages from lost earnings and bonuses after failing to be crowned champion. A section of the letter reads: “Simply put, Mr Massa is the rightful 2008 Driver’s Champion, and F1 and FIA deliberately ignored the misconduct that cheated him out of that title. “Mr Massa is unable to fully quantify his losses at this stage but estimates that they are likely to exceed tens of millions of Euros. “This amount does not cover the serious moral and reputational losses suffered by Mr Massa.” If Ecclestone and Mosley were aware of what had transpired before the season concluded, a decision could have been taken to exclude the Singapore GP from the championship. Hamilton would have lost his third place from the race, so making Massa champion. Ecclestone has subsequently claimed he has no recollection of the interview he conducted with F1 Insider that has sparked the furore, and the comments he made. From Ferrari’s perspective, it is simply seeking transparency over the matter, according to team principal Fred Vasseur. Speaking to invited media, including Speedcafe, in a group interview session ahead of this weekend’s Dutch Grand Prix, Vasseur initially said: “As you can imagine, I don’t want to make any comment on this matter,” when asked about Massa’s legal pursuit. “I have a good relationship with all the stakeholders, and it’s quite tricky.” Vasseur is also good friends with Nicolas Todt, who was the manager of Felipe Massa during his F1 career. The Frenchman then added: “The circumstances were completely exceptional. “More generally, and not about Felipe, I think we (Ferrari) are also trying to push the FIA to know the result of the event at the chequered flag. “I don’t want to make any comments but for sure it (changing the result now) will be strange.” After a long pause, he concluded: “I’m not a big fan to change the result of a race 15 minutes after the chequered flag.” Massa is now seeking a satisfactory response from F1 and the FIA. Without it, the letter stated the former driver would “pursue legal action in order to seek compensation for the harm he has suffered”. F1 and the FIA have 14 days to respond from the date of the letter issued on August 15. https://www.speedcafe.com/2023/08/23/felipe-massa-legal-action-2008-f1-world-championship/
The "C" word is presenting. Take your pick.... https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a56338/trump-collusion-conspiracy/
A former French Prime Minister, the late Michel Rocard, had sometimes insightful formulas: " Always prefer the hypothesis of stupidity to that of conspiracy. Stupidity is common. Conspiracy requires a rare mind."
Actually, it was a "rephrasing" ot the "Hanlon's razor" theory of the early eighties...which itself can be another rephrasing from other citations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor Rgds
