Track day self support for F430C or 458C

Even for trackdays some guys drive faster and harder than others. Some trackday guys are just as good as any racer I'd be willing to share a track with. A good driver 5/10's could put more energy into a car than a lesser driver at 8/10's. The GT3 IMO is the only car you can track off the showroom floor and expect it to survive the day not melt brakes etc. No street Ferrari can do that. If going 430C or 458C then you have to compare that to gt3Cup. Again the GT3 cup will walk away from the ferraris in the typical real life metrics including getting parts, service, knowledge base. If you start really getting into DE and decide to track daytona or road atlanta and you have a cup car issue away from home there is someone nearby who knows porsches. There just isn't that depth with Ferraris. Ferrari gearboxes also let you down because ferrari has italian electronics married to it. The Geramns will overly complicate things like an electronic dipstick but it will work! In my club racing I went even further racing corvette. Often I can just get parts at the local GM dealer. I can find a fender often in my color at the junkyard for $250 bucks! A porsche fender will cost you more but you can buy one right now. The Ferrari fender? Go ahead try and order one...see how long it takes just to find one. See how much effort it is to find brake caliper seals.

If you want to putt around the track at 5/10's a ferrari is for you. It will do that all day. Stress a car and find the weak spots real fast.

 

I disagree with @fatbillybob and his anecdotal evidence. What does he drive? Corvette? Got it….

I bought a 458C in Feb, I’ve had it out 25 times to a half dozen tracks, and it’s been run hard. Fantastic car, much more lively than a P car.

Getting a Ferrari track car was my single best decision of the year, period.

8/10 or better, that’s what I’m capable of at present, but the car hasn’t let me down once. And btw, the 458 is a remarkably crude (brutal) car.

A buddy with a GT3-RS is still chasing gremlins, he’s crapped out first day on the three times I’ve seen him. I know this isn’t typical of Porsches, but still….

I always show up trackside with my car fully serviced and a spare set of pads and tires. And I have a VCI to at least troubleshoot should problems occur.

Your point about doing it yourself, I’d rather drive than maintain and drive (which is tiresome and stressful), so I’m not afraid to seek out help if I need it.

 

I've been wheel to wheel racing for decades. Long before club racing vettes at the highest amateur level all over the country I raced the 348 when it was the hot ferrari of it's day so that's in the 90's. My 348 evolved beyond challenge spec full welded cage modified suspension 2750lbs with me in it. I do have experience racing and wrecking ferraris and have owned many since the 308 in the 70's. There are plenty of posts on Fchat where I tell about how I hate porsches. In fact I'm the guy who came up with the name "Pbug"for those things and more than a few did not take kindly to my label. But, I know a good racecar and the gt3 cup is a long since proven racecar with factory support and history of continued factory investment in the model. Where is the factory ferrari challenge engine rebuilder? Well one of the Porsche motorsports engine rebuilders is a few miles from me. They are all over the country if you want a sealed cup car motor. For ferrari good luck you think the dealer can do it? Some of those part replacers should not be allowed to change oil. Simple disposables for ferrari are just a pain to obtain regardless of price. Does any ferrari have the depth of brake pad availability that a gt3 cup has? We know the answer to that. I can't tell you how many times a non-3pedal ferrari is at the track missing sessions because it can't run because of gearbox issues.

A ferrari on track is fun. It's great you enjoy it. Put real racers in it and it will break guaranteed. The gt3cup won't break because it has had 30+ years of continued development. Every generation fixed the bugs of the prior one. More gt3 cup cars have been sold and raced around the world than any other.

 

@fatbillybob Fair enough, sounds like you’ve earned your right to opine.

I’d speculate I’m an outlier, but at least three others I run with have the 458C, none have had problems of the proportions you describe.

Certainly racing is more strenuous on the car than high level HPDE. So you would know the extreme end of the spectrum.

The high consumable items are readily available for the 458C and can be easily managed trackside.

All things being equal, I’d still rather have the Ferrari, that’s just my opinion however.

 

I push my F8 really hard on track and have been very impressed with its durability. I've only had to replace brake pads (3700 miles on the odometer, about 1000 track miles) and have gone through 3 sets of tires, the PZ4s that it came with (4 track days), Pilot Super Sports (6 track days...but really that was too much, I got down to the cords on my right side tires since all the tracks I go to are counter clockwise...see picture) and Sport Cup 2s (2 track days...might be able to squeeze one more out).

Nothing broke, despite going off track a couple times and hitting the curbs hard a couple times.

I do have full PPF on the car. And I've had to pay to get the PPF fixed a few times. But the PPF did its job. Took the damage and kept the paint pristine


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Incredible to see someone tracking an F8. I have the F 8 spider version, but decided to go with a dedicated track car (due to frequency and intensity). I am quite tempted to track it just to see a bit of its capabilities. That lovely TT engine!

Be mindful of tires and check them and wheel nuts frequently, like every session or two. You don’t want a blow out at track speeds, it’ll be much, much more damage than PPF.

 

this is exactly what I’m talking about and why this car is surviving without issue on track. To most going to cords on 40,000 mile street tire in a few days only a few hundred miles, sounds like really putting pressure and speed into the car…getting the most from the car. But what this says to me is that this car was run way under the chassis limit because of the stock setup allowing tires to roll over and sacrifice themselves prevents damaging energy off the chassis, off the brake system, off the engine, and off the cooling system…muting the energy that will find weak spots in the overall set up.

 

Maybe so. I know I have several seconds a lap to find. I am going to go with a more aggressive camber setup, -2.0 in front and -1.5 in back, to try and reduce the excessive wear on the outside shoulder. The Sport Cup 2 tires outside shoulder did better. That said, I was expecting that the F8 wouldn't be as durable as it was. I think I'm pretty close to 9/10 of what the car is capable of...threshold braking, using the throttle to rotate the car in slower corners, trail braking and mostly managing slip angles in the front and back. But that last 1/10 is a lot. There are a lot of people that think I'm nuts already though. HAHA

And Ferrari service is EXPENSIVE, that part is true. Which is why, for simpler stuff, changing brake pads and flushing the lines, I just did it myself. First time that was petty harrowing too...it's not quite as simple as regular cars and I didn't want to break anything since everything is so expensive!

I see Porsche GT3s in my nightmares man. They are consistently faster than me in my F8. So yeah, that part for sure I can confirm. They are absolutely setup for the track more than a regular Ferrari. But I haven't given up yet! Still got time to find!

I get what you're saying, and maybe you're right, but I haven't seen any thing so far to indicate the car is fragile in anyway. In fact all indications are that it is far more durable than I personally expected, and frankly probably better than almost anyone thinks. It's race bred design and engineering, and so far I've been very impressed

 

BTW, this is the inside tire at the end of 2 track days on Pilot Sport Cup 2 R tires. The other side is worse, but im gonna rotate sides and see how much more life there is. My wheels are directional, and according to the dealer I lose some aerodynamic effect, where it's extracting hot air from the brakes, but, I'm guessing that is a very mild effect, especially since the base wheels (regular aluminum) and the upgrade from my wheels (the carbon fiber wheels) both don't have any aero design at all. But...12 track days is all she wrote for this year. That will have to wait for 2024
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Go to any serious track event, you see lots of porches for a reason. For sure these cars have issues, and some issues are cost cutting and should not be there, but they are honed for a purpose in a way Ferraris are not. Ferraris are really cool fast evocative street cars in a way porches are not, but on track its the other way around.

Illa also echo the parts and bodywork comments of billybob. As soon as a car breaks, or you even minorly ding it you're out the game until its repaired. Unless you have a backup car waiting months or going through the gates of hell to get parts gets old quick.

once you start pushing hard its inevitable something will break, or you'll ding, might take a year or 10 but it will happen.

now i wish Ferrari made a car like a Gt3 or something even more basic car honed just track only. You know a CF tub, Na v8 kind of like the Ferrari version of what lotus did with the 211. Surprised the others dont do that too, its the future esp as road cars become eletrified more and more.

these days, my objective priority list is
1. durability on track
2. cost to run
3. parts avialability
4 ease or repair
Thats true for every performance level.

also do count other subjective factors such as
1 Finesse of vehicle on track,
2. is it me or the car faking with electronics
3. engine type sound,
4 asthetics

Objectively American cars canmro and vette do great.
Subjectively
, and this is for anyone other than a pure racer a subjective experience American cars fail on point 1, usually due to weight and size. Most exotic's fail on point 2. in both categories.

If you're talking road cars Porche esp the Gt4 Gt3 and rs ticks a lot of boxes for a price. Lotus sued to work but they make electric suvs now. Camaros do well for the price but at a price in weight/finesse and theyre soon to be gone. The C8 from what Ive seen is frankly not that fast on track compared to say the p cars, the z06 may well be a different ballgame, but its big and heavy, but may hit a sweetspot.

 

Track Days do feel like Porsche meet ups sometimes, there are so many 911s

 

people buy what works, and also where there is support.
Ferrari Lambo Malcren if one shows up its an odd duck, they're really expensive to run and besides maybe ferrari not that durable over the longer haul.
You also see a fair number of lotus wlige , given the small number produced as a percentage its probably overrepresented. That may say something about the product and customer base.
Then we see a plethora of stripped e36 bmws, cause they work too.

By my notional eyes of new cars or cars produced over the last decade that can work on track with miniml mods it looks like this
Porsche
Corvette
Camaro
BMW. m2

Occasionally you see fast mustang, there was anew Gt500 out last time, it was quick, but fast? Ill pur question mark there..

Somewhere in there is the mx5, but thats a different level of power as is the mni.

None of which is surprising as each of the above companies have been designing and honing their product's to work on track, and or you can buy used versions of those products where the undelaying bones are good and turn them into quite capable track cars.

To date i'm not hearing good things about the honda ctr( verizon till 22) maybe the newer one is better, I did see the acura version really cooking, how they hold up is a question mark. The Toyota Gr doesn't work on track without spending double it purchase price on mods, same can be said for subarus and nissan 400z. Frankly if you're going to sped 50+K in mods, then almost any car can sorta work on track.



You want out the box new road legal cars that work on ntrack
Porche Gt series.
some vettes
camaro 1lt
maybe mustang horse
maybe Honda CTR

The fastest of those cars over multiple laps all day where it really boils down to driver Porsche Gt cars followed by camaro zl1 1lt, cant comment on the z06 yet.

I haven't mentioned the mercedes amg two door thing, for sure it can set apace, but Ive yet to see one sustain.

 

Having tracked a Ferrari for approximately 70 track days (HPDE, although I run Chin Red and David Murry open track days which is pretty close to racing),
I can add my experience to the mix…..this includes comments from @boxerman

1) there are mostly Porsches on track because they are naturally good track cars, even the Caymans. They do everything well, and were a far cheaper alternative then a Ferrari (though that has changed).

2) I tallied my expenses over 8 months of heavy tracking with the 458 Challenge. The car has proven incredibly reliable, and 90% of my expenses have been consumables. Mostly tires, fuel and brakes. The rest has been maintenance, T&L, track fees, etc. But it is expensive, no doubt.

3) I’m generally a lone wolf in a Ferrari because few people want to risk wasting their car. A bad car fax is a kiss of death for a street car (not so much a race car).

4) you can keep the high horsepower, heavier front engine cars, I don’t like them one bit on track. The C8 is okay, the Z06 is going to be enormously expensive to keep on track (far more than the F Challenge) and it is prone to frailties. It is not faster than a Challenge car.

5). I turn everything off in the Challenge, it is a well balanced and linear car, no complaints about the electronics whatsoever. ABS works fine.

 

The current gen Supra is a tuners dream. I've seen some on track that were faster than my F8. They run the BMW B58 engine, and people are getting 600-700 hp pretty easily. Along with some fairly simple handling mods (mostly bigger wheels and tires) and it's a really fast track car.

 

The dealer is always trying to get me to get a Challenge car. Not sure I'm quite that hard core yet though. The lack of insurance makes it REALLY hard for me to get the last 1/10 out of the car though. And yeah, I'm often the only Ferrari on track. Occasionally, I'll see one or two others though, including Herrick Huang, who recently set the production car lap record in an SF90.

 

Yes, I saw one last week at Road Atlanta. Damn that thing was faaaaaaaassssst, I’m guessing low-mid 1:20s. It appeared to be heavily modded.

 

You really gotta look for the 458, not a lot out there. I know of two folks that are actively looking.

Best decision I made was to get one earlier this year. It only does track, much better car than the 458 spider, way more engaging. It’s made me a better driver and given me confidence to push harder. By next year I should be sub 2:00 at Watkins Glen and VIR, sub 1:30 at Road Atlanta.

That’s nuts for the SF90, I bet it’s insane on a track. I’m often tempted to track my F8, but keep telling myself it won’t do much better than what I have now. Grip and brakes are heavily in the Challenge car’s favor.

 

Oh any challenge car is gonna be dramatically faster than the F8. I've see a few challenge cars that looked like pretty good values. You got me thinking. SO MANY CARS TO BUY, so little money and garage space. HAHA

 

You can get a 458 Ch maybe high 150s, a 430 Ch 130s or more. That is a hell of a lot cheaper than your F8 should things go south!

If you enjoy tracking (sounds like you do, lol) and are doing 12 days a year, a Ch or GT3 or Clubsport is worth a thought. Warning: you may fall in love.

 

I have a 430 challenge gt car available! It was stradmans old car.

 

My 2 cents. I have raced and tracked Ferrari Challenge cars for the last 20 years (355 through 488 CH). I have no regrets.
I started off tracking my street Ferrari then wised up and bought my first challenge car.

I would start this conversation with "How much is your life worth?". I would never take a streetcar to a track event ever again. You are going 130 mph plus on a racetrack. Your survival rate in a race car is much greater because of the safety devices built into the race car.

When you go on a racetrack, it's not where will you crash it's when will you crash. It's always a matter of time.
No matter how good you think you are it will happen. You need to be ready.

It is an expensive sport. I have heard Porsches are better than Ferrari or less expensive. Ferraris are better than Porsches. Both cars are expensive to run. The modern Porsches are expensive to run and crash just like Ferrari.
The one advantage of the Porsches is that the parts and support infrastructure is incredible. Ferrari's parts are not readily available, and the support is difficult because it is a small circle of people.
Ferrari is a very dependable race car if you maintain them. The parts wear out just like any other car. Engines will need to be replaced. The transmissions will need to be re-built. Wheel bearings will need to be replaced. You will do the same with other race cars no matter what brand you choose.

The experience of driving a Ferrari race car from the factory on a racetrack is incredible. I highly recommend it.

 

Words of wisdom about running a race car v a street car. The laws of physics have not been repealed. Speed doesn’t kill, stopping does.


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It’s not Ferraris and Porsches, but perhaps the best deal going was the Skippy race series. Fly and drive on the best tracks in America. Cost used to be about $5,000 a weekend. Spec cars, and great drivers. You had 15-year olds living the dream and old foxes punting them into the grass. Maybe it was too good of a deal because Skippy went broke.


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I just checked, Skippy is still around racing formula and Mustang cars. If racing is what you want, it is hard to beat. Racing some else’s car is the way to go. You can even buy insurance!


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