360 Multiple 360 issues with over-cooling, high oil pressure and new oil leak

Please bear with me. I appear to have multiple new concurrent issues with my 360, all presenting themselves this weekend, as soon as the temperatures dipped into the low 40’s F. I’m not sure if they’re all connected, or each independent of one another. I’ve spent the weekend reading through FChat archives so I didn’t beat dead horses, but as I’m wondering if these issues are related and/or share a root cause, I’m just going to start fresh:

1. Coolant temperature low:
First noticed during a nighttime drive; Ambient temp was about 44F and raining. First time ambient temps had been this low this year. I Noticed the coolant temp was running between 154-161 on the highway, verified and monitored on my Autel AP200. Once on surface roads with traffic lights etc, it would make its way back up around 170’s. It’s usually around 175-180 when moving on the highway. When I parked at home after the drive and let idle for several minutes, it did make its way up to 204 before I shut it down. So that part seems normal.
Engine oil temp was around 160ish for the majority of the drive once warmed up, based on the gauge, but I can’t monitor or verify that parameter with the Autel. It usually reads a little higher than that, but not much.

I did some reading, and found some different pieces of info and different theories on the low coolant temps. I believe it was Taz that mentioned some years ago that some US 360’s came with 160* thermostats, so that *could* explain the car running so cool at 85+mph speeds when it’s in the 40’s outside. I was concerned that the oil wasn’t getting warm enough, however, perhaps limited by the coolant not getting warm enough to warm the oil, which brings me to my next concern:

*High oil pressure:
While I believe it’s normal for oil pressure to be on the higher side for the first several minutes of operation while the oil comes up to normal operating temp, I was experiencing oil pressures climbing into the region of 110+/- when going over 3K rpm’s or so, even after 30 minutes of driving. Off-throttle they would drop back down to just above or below 70, and at idle, it would drop back down into the 20’s/30’s region, like it always has. I’ve seen this once or twice in the past when I wasn’t expecting it, but never on a normal or consistent basis, and definitely not after the warm-up period. It’s not unusual for my psi to be around 90-100 for the first few minutes of any given drive while the oil comes up to temp. Is this normal? My concern and question here was if the coolant wasn’t getting warm enough, could it be restricting the oil from getting warm enough, and thereby causing the oil pressure to be too high because it can’t reach its ideal operating viscosity?

Though I know the oil pressure sending units have been known to be faulty, I suspect it may be accurate in this case because of my next concern:

*After driving around this weekend and noticing these anomalies, I gave the engine bay another once-over this morning before leaving for work. I noticed an oil leak on the drivers side that never existed before, making its way all the way to the belly pan. There is fresh oil on the bottom of the rear cam covers on the drivers side, some on a wire loom on the side on the engine block, all leading to fresh puddle/stain on the belly pan. My first thought was that the excessive oil pressure I noticed last night had gotten so high as to blow out the rear cam cover gasket on the drivers side, but as I kept looking further up, there was fresh oil also dripping from the underside of the throttle body-to-intake boot. Unfortunately this is nothing new. I first posted about it 2 years ago when I first got the car. I replaced the passenger side clamp at the time, but it’s still continued to drip over time. The passenger side has always dripped too, but neither side has EVER left a puddle or dripped any visible amount of fresh oil on components all the way down to and including a stain on the belly pan. This is what makes me believe that the high oil pressure may have been accurate in this case, and whether that caused more oil to leak forcefully out of the throttle to intake boot (or somewhere else). That said, I never got to the bottom of the cause for the oil to be dripping out of the throttle body to intake boots. I’ve done 2 oil changes now since owning the car, and neither have been overfilled by my measurements. I also can’t imagine that any overfills before my ownership would still be dripping from the boots after the 2 years and 14,000 miles that I’ve had the car for.
I’ll attach a picture of the oil leak I saw today. You can see the fresh oil on the bottom of the rear cam cover and on the belly pan. It was fresh.

So for my theories and plans:

Assuming the thermostat could be bad, or be a 160* unit, I was going to replace it and see if helped the coolant temp come up higher and quicker in these cold temps, thereby bringing the oil up to a warmer temp, and hopefully thinning it out to keep the pressures normal in cold driving weather. Does this theory seem like a plausible solution?

Next, I was considering replacing the throttle body boots and clamps to see if I could stop the dripping/leaking. However, is there still a root cause for the leaking that I should be looking for? Blocked aerator lines, faulty PCV, etc? If so, what, where, and how should I be looking for these possible causes?

Big thanks to anyone who’s stuck with the whole thread this far. I know it’s alot of reading, but all there issues seem to have come to a head concurrently, all with onset of the cold weather, whether that’s a contributing factor or pure coincidence.

Any and all insights are appreciated at this time. I’m scared to drive the car in its current state.
Thank you!

Jeremy

Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Sounds normal

I’d just clean the valve covers

enjoy her

 

I’m not convinced.
After 2 years and 14K miles of ownership, and constant observation, this leak is new and fairly substantial. There was still a fresh, amber liquid drop hanging from the rear cam cover. And there’s never been a puddle on the underbelly. I check my bag and undertray before, during and after every weekend of driving. For this new leak to coincide with the anomalies in temperature and oil pressure doesn’t sit well with me.

 

In order for oil to be leaking out of the throttle body to intake boot (aka sleeve), the oil has to be coming in from the breather attached to the side of the throttle body. Typically, when the oil is overfilled, it barfs up through this vent and into the intake where it puddles in the recesses in the intake manifold.

If you have oil dripping out of that area, it's not because of the clamp or sleeve. It's because oil is reaching places it shouldn't reach.

How do you check your oil?

 

Properly; engine and fluids up to full operating temp. Level surface. Engine running. Dipstick cleaned, then resting on neck before checking level.

The boot-to-manifold connection has been weeping since I got the car, before I changed the oil, and ever since, through 2 subsequent oil changes. I’ve wiped them dry every so often, only for the drip to return.
Are there any cause/blockages/parts failures that would result in oil being forced up through the breather tubes when it shouldn’t be?

Also, if it were just normal blow-by (is that the right term?), would a faulty boot (be it a loose clamp, deteriorated rubber, cracked rubber etc) allow even a normal amount of oil to drip out instead of enter the intake and get atomized/sucked into the combustion process?

At the very least, this weekend I’ll check the level again, pull the boots, have a look inside the intake for signs of pooling oil, clean and tighten the boots and clamps, and clean all leaks to start fresh.

Regarding the low coolant temps and high oil pressure, anyone have any insights?

 

@Jaymac - With my car, there was some oil, a very small amount, in the sleeve and a slight film on the throttle body on one side only. The other side was dry. If there's oil in the throttle body throat, and you're filling it properly, then it could be some other issue. I am unaware of what that might be but it can't be good. The oil can work its way into that throttle body through the butterfly valve and spoil the sensitive potentiometers inside. There are no OEM replacements for the throttle bodies so you want to be careful with them.

The question is what is the source of oil? I suggest removing the sleeve (careful with the ear clamp - no more available) and take a look at the throttle body throat to see if there's any oil fouling. If enough oil to flood your engine compartment is leaking out of the throttle body sleeve, it's likely also filling up all those recesses in the intake manifold and your car may start smoking.

 

I will do that. I have some adjustable Oetiker clamps that believe will fit, but I’ll double check.

Very curious to know if there are any other known issue that I can look into which would cause excessive oil through the vent hoses other than overfilling.

 

Are you using the same oil / weight ..any additives ?

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

 

Mobil 1 5W-40. I think I did BG MOA this last fill, but I’d have to refer to my maintenance logs when I get home in 8 hours. I was thinking of draining and switching to 0W-40 to help with the high-pressure issue, since I do drive my car essentially year-round in the Northeast. But I also don’t want to just put on a band-aid if I should be troubleshooting more serious issues. I’m thinking of attaching a mechanical oil pressure gauge to see if the sender could be faulty. But I continue to be concerned by the correlation between the high pressures I was seeing and the brand new oil leak that has never presented before last night.

 

If you put Moa in there ..I would think it may be the reason you are seeing higher pressures at equivalent temps


Try changing back to what you were using before

Btw 0w40 Mobil 1 is a better oil than the 5w40

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

 

Interesting. I only used the BG MOA because I saw it on the invoice for the last 2 oil changes done by the pro shop prior to my ownership. I assumed they knew something I didn’t, so I stuck with it. I won’t post their name to avoid an unnecessary debate, but they are a forum sponsor and well-known in the Ferrari community. Given the theory of the MOA being a possible cause of higher pressures, coupled with the fact that 0w should lower pressures in cold weather vs 5w, I suppose it’s easy enough to make that switch and see if that alleviates any symptoms.

Dom, any thoughts on the low coolant temp (causes/concerns) and the possibility of not warming the sufficiently and causing subsequent higher than normal oil pressures?

 

Wrong or stuck thermostat...coolant level ok?

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

 

Coolant level ok when I checked and replaced the cap last week, as I noticed dried leaks around the cap and know they’re common to have very short life cycles. I’m always monitoring coolant levels and gearbox oil to watch for heat exchanger status. I read that some US cars were delivered with 160* thermostats, which would vibe with the coolant reaching the 160 mark on the highway, then bouncing between 160’s and 150’s. I just don’t recall seeing the temps this low the last few winters, but I suppose it’s always possible I just wasn’t paying as close of attention. Also entirely possible it just needs to be replaced. I’m just wondering if the low temps themselves are reason alone to replace it?

 

The cars do run cool during cold the weather and I suggest not using any MOA. It is just a money grab by the dealer.

 

I forgot to mention that the oil pressure sending unit is electric and often prone to failure. Valve cover and cam cover seals on a 360 can leak due to age. They can be replaced to resolve the issue.

 

The temperature behaviour is classic thermostat symptoms. I had to replace mine not long after buying it. It's not even *too* hard a job to DIY just slightly fiddly. Here's my thread on it:

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/thermostat-housing-whoopsie.681468/

I think every used car I've ever had has run better with a new thermostat so I usually plan on replacing it regardless.

 

Jaymac

Looks like the first steps ..change oil and filter and thermostat and report back .. seems inexpensive and easy enough as a first step

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

 

Given how high the oil pressure is getting and assuming the sender is working correctly, i would be thinking about the pressure relief valve possibly sticking or worn. Regardless of the temp , should it be letting the pressure be so high.

 

Good to monitor your car vitals,

Please use care if you bring this car to a shop w the first post… they will spend your $$$$$ and throw parts at it at $200/hr.

 

Problem #1: what are you doing driving in the rain? The car will melt!

I’m not a pro…

What viscosity of oil did you use?

Triple check you aren’t overfilled. Easiest cause to remedy.

Oil pressure, If you aren’t sure replace the sending unit (simplest and relatively inexpensive). If it also reads high almost certainly real, I’d check with a gauge also.

You did put new cam end cap gaskets on when you replaced the belts, id make sure they are tight enough. However seems from the description its coming from throttle body and dripping down.

I think you listed the causes for oil up there, can investigate them if pressure is normal.

My car runs cooler in the fall/winter. Do you get heat? Do the temp go up and fan(s) go on when idling? My opinion is car should be warm enough to warm oil sufficiently for pressure not to be extreme.

-ray

 

Regarding your direct question - do I think lower coolant temps are leading to the oil not heating properly and causing higher oil pressure - no.

The oil at 5w40 is plenty thin to operate cold and not cause excessive pressure. My car does run cooler coolant temps a lower ambient temps like you're seeing, nothing abnormal there.

I do think you could have higher oil pressure that's real, and that higher pressure could have made poor seals weep more than they were prior, that seems realistic. I'd lose the connection in your mind between the coolant temps and oil pressure and seek out a cause for higher pressure (lots of aforementioned ideas in the thread).

 

Thank you all for your input and replies. Please see below for replies:

Replacing the pressure sending unit is on my list of possible steps. I think I’ll try a mechanical gauge first to see if it vibes with my the factory gauge. My valve cover gaskets and at least 1 specific spark plug gasket could use a refresh, but no actual liquid leaks yet. The rear cam cover seal was just replaced with the last timing belt service in the spring, but I’ll check it for proper torque this weekend. I suspect the oil I saw on Tuesday was dripping from above, from the throttle body to intake tube.

Thermostat replacement is definitely on my short list at this point, even if it’s not directly related to the high oil pressure. Thanks for the link.
Is there a definitive cross-reference part for the thermostat by this point? I’ve seen it discussed over the years, but have we reached a final conclusion for a 100% match? $178 seems a little ridiculous for such a rudimentary part.

If indeed the high pressures are accurate, what’s the solution for a sticking or worn pressure relief valve? Rebuild? Replacement?

True story. That’s why I always come here first and try to troubleshoot snd brainstorm with the community and see what I can fix on my own before resorting to a shop. So far, 100% success rate. Let’s keep it going.

Ray,
I ponied up for the waterproof model; worth every penny! The only thing more amusing than the look on people’s faces when they see a Ferrari driving in the rain is when they see one driving in the snow

I was using Mobil 1 5W-40 with BG MOA.

I will triple check the level this weekend after wiping and drying all existing oil leaks, and removing the throttle body boots to inspect for excess oil, oil in the intakes and loose clamps.

I’ll probably check with a mechanical gauge first before swapping for a new one.

I’ll check the can cover torque, but it’s *almost* certainly coming from above. I’ll get a closer look this weekend.

The heat worked perfectly, even when the coolant temps were low. When I parked and let it idle after the last drive, oil pressure was perfectly normal, and temps rose to 204* before I shut it down. My fans usually kick on between 210 and 214 in the summer, but I didn’t bother letting it get all the way up there before shutting it down.

Some sound advice in here. If we get to the point that the issue seems isolated to a specific high pressure issue, is the only possible cause a worn or sticking pressure relief valve? Entire faulty oil pump?

Thanks again to all who have weighed in and contributed

 

I couldn't find a confirmed alternative when I did this in August so I gritted my teeth and ordered 183758/A from Maranello at just over £100.

https://www.ferrariparts.co.uk/part/ferrari/183758-a

Then to make it worse, when I ordered they casually said "oh, you need the new seal too, 102913", and I didn't want to sound like a poor person so I just agreed to it. Another £23 for a small rubber ring.

https://www.ferrariparts.co.uk/part/ferrari/102913

Both plus VAT. So £150 all up.

But it fits and it works so I guess that makes it all OK ? I just console myself that I can do the work myself for £0 instead of paying someone else a further £xxx to do it.

 

That tracks with what I’m finding on this side of the pond. Same part numbers, for $178.15 and $39.77, for a total of $217.92 USD, or $179 pounds. I’m sure if purchased from overseas, the shipping would make up the difference.

 

Not seen one of these relief valves in bits, but the ones i have seen on big diesels have guides vanes which wear and can cause them to stick.
Looking at the oil pump diagram you appear to have 3 pairs of gears, so you have 3 oil pumps in one unit. On the right hand end you have a spring loaded ball bearing item 40, that is a relief valve but this design is usually trouble free.
Look at item 69, Register, odd name but that is another oil pressure control from what i can see- this is the same as you see inside hydraulic control valves- the edges of these can become damaged and they stick. I would be inspecting this first and look for score marks on the sides or is it tight in one spot. You can dress up a scratch with a small hand oil stone