‘62 GTO 3765 to be auctioned at Sotheby’s NYC November 13.

I was wondering why it hadn't been at Lime Rock historics the last few years. I guess i should consider myself lucky to have seen Sandra thrashing it around against a DB4GT years ago

 

I think they are in the “ask and you shall be answered” business when it comes to what they consider cars to be. The problem is that owners of controversial cars might not want to ask so directly… one of those “if you don’t ask you won’t hear the answer” things…

 

Whatever we call it, it is beautiful, has had an interesting life, and sold for what the current market among the very wealthy decided the story made it worth.
When new a typical working surgeon could have scrounged to have bought this, and one did. Today, it takes far more than saving lives one at a time to compete with others who would like one in their garage.
It is art, it is cool, and I have greatly appreciated the thoughts of you an others on this thread.

 

Ferrari Classiche had some foibles in their early establishment, not least their central tenet of restoring everything to its as left the factory gates form. This meant that certain full replicas owned by well connected clients were restored and their original demand to restore cars like the Breadvan back to its original Scaglietti form and the requirement that new incredibly expensive parts and engines be built to replace original, incorrect items. They seem to have grown out of that and seem to have hired enough advisors to overcome the worst of the original idiocy and interagency although I have little doubt some of that still exists. As for #0846 Ferrari considers it to have been scrapped in the later 1960s and have little reason to change their view, and that would appear to be the rationale behind Jim building his Enzo based P4/5 with Ferrari and Pininfarina in 2005/6 but everything Jim has done since then hasn't involved Ferrari SPA and the last Italian restoration he did was in 2010 when he had his 125/159/166 Inter #002C restored. Hell he had #0854 restored in the USA and apparently the new owner is having it classiche restored via Joe Macari so will be fascinating to see what, if any, changes they make to it.

But for #3765LM I am not referring to Classiche, rather I refer to their original build papers showing in Ferraris own words that #3765LM was converted at Maranello to 250GTO form in 1963. Plenty here will argue that if it began as a 2420mm 330LM, even with factory GTO coachwork, it can only ever be a 330LM but surely that is an obtuse argument since most of the P cars began as something and ended up as something else, 250/275/330Ps and later on the 330P3/412P/330P4s offering perhaps 10 cars that Ferrari built as one thing and converted to another. I don't have the funds to play at this level but if a car was built as a 330P3 and converted to 412P form and lived as a 412P for 50+ years it would possibly be sacrilege to restore it back to P3 form, especially if it took major surgery. Returning to 3765LM, pictures of the chassis show engine mounts (I assume original) for either 250GTO or 330LM engines and show that the bodywork was only minorly altered in 1963 so this gives the new owner the option of multiple configurations should they wish to restore it without harming the integrity of the car.

 

Most "P" cars were upgraded by the factory DURING FACTORY OWNERSHIP. 3765 was converted to GTO specifications by the factory DURING PRIVATE OWNERSHIP. It was work done for a client on a car that had already left factory ownership. When Ferrari ceased to own 3765, it was a 330LM.

 

What I find humorous is the idea that people care about what happened over 60 years. I'm guessing neither Enzo nor anybody else had a clue people would be this passionate about these cars after all this time.

 

So no we know that no matter what it is, if there is a story that has to be told for it all to make sense, substract at least 10-20% from the value compared to one that doesn't need a documentary to explain how it is what it is.

There are certainly plenty of cars with more convoluted stories about how the factory chopped up, modified, repaired, swapped engines etc. The wildest stories might be that of the various Maserati 151 chassis and their constant alterations..... @wbaeumer

 

@Dyke: Thank you for this precise and important clarification.

Marcel Massini

 

RM Sotheby's pictures 117-119 and 121 -126 of 3765 LM at the Nurburgring 1000 KM in 1962 are captioned 3673SA, NOT 3765 LM. See link here.

RM Sotheby's forgot about 4561 SA in the following text too: As one of 34 GTO examples built with Tipo 1962 coachwork, and the only example originally equipped with a 4-liter engine, chassis number 3765 has been profiled several times in the Ferrari-focused publications Prancing Horse and Cavallino, and its period racing career was documented in magazines like Sports Car Graphic, Road & Track, and Autosport.

 

^^^^
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

2400mm as Steve ably points out.

 

Not RM/Sotheby's caption but that of photo copyright holder.
But you're right, in the interest of accuracy, they could have noted underneath that the copyright holder has mis-captioned the photo

A confusing equation but RM/Sotheby's got the math right.

36 cars originally built as 250 GTO
- 3 cars built with Series II ("64 GTO") coachwork
- 1 car built (4713GT) carrying LMB coachwork
= 32
+ 1 (3765LM)
+ 1 (4561SA, albeit 50 mm/ 2" longer)
= 34 examples built with Tipo 1962 coachwork

 

Yes, but not the maths of those 34 cars that were originally equipped with 4 litre engine.

 

What about 3673SA?

 

It's a 400 Superamerica with Scaglietti 250 GT SWB Berlinetta style bodywork, not a 330 LM with GTO tipo 62 Comp. bodywork, and never was.

 

Circa 1980 the then-owner of 3673SA decided to rebody it in the style of a 250 GTO. This started a decades-long chain reaction of incorrect information in articles and books. This added volumes of unnecessary confusion- which in some circles persists to this day. Like Steve said, not at all a GTO and never was.

 

3765 LM:
Car stays in USA.
Reserve was 45 M $.
(The 60 M $ was wishful thinking, a.k.a. hype or sales fantasy)

Marcel Massini

 

It appears there was a guaranteed pre-bid of 45 M $.

Marcel Massini

 

3647 sold for a LOT LESS than the price range you hint at. There is so much rubbish being claimed about the private sale prices of GTOs, which has been the case for years. This nonsense is probably having the desired effect though, of actually pushing prices up, but to nowhere near the figures claimed of course.

 

http://catalogue.rmsothebys.com/books/psit/?&utm_source=rmsothebys.com&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=GT23&utm_term=GT23_History&_cldee=oN3HRMNoQUi0sPziWhM0IDlyXR0ks1D_ZsiRji6fQNm-PixNLgD9XTraN3ytJ800&recipientid=contact-798599152c61ee11829d000c2971a03a-0e4fc86e01da4c26aaab88660a7048f9&esid=f2d1c899-ea6d-ee11-829e-000c2971a03a
What is the timeline for the original sale of 3765? Did it leave the factory as sold as a 330LM with no modification to make it a "250 GTO", then returned for the conversion/modifications? Or was the sale completed with the conversion as part of the sale price and delivery delayed until the modifications were completed? Semantics? Sure. But can we interpret the Italian to create the the real timeline? Most articles I have read state that it was converted before it was sold to Pietro Ferraro. I wonder what Mr. Ferraro's, although personally biased, legal opinion would be.

 

Why don't you actually read the history files link that you posted, and in particular page 21? It's all there.

 

Please provide proof, otherwise your claim is as good as his.

 

I missed that and appreciate the direction. Unlike you and Marcel, I am not a trained or practicing historian, just an enthusiast.

So, a short amature timeline of the relavent facts:
July 1962- Last SF race for 3765 with Bandini/Parkes at 24h LeMans
Nov 1962- Sold by SF to Mr. Ferraro as 330LM #3765 with 4.0 litre engine
Nov 1962-March 1963- raced by Mr. Ferraro in minor competitions
March 1963- Returned to Ferrari Factory by Mr. Ferraro
May-Oct 1963 Ferrari Factory performs conversion/modification of 330LM #3765 to 250GTO specifications creating what the Ferrari factory then identified as 330LM/250GTO #3765
Oct 1963

Page 47 has what I see as an excellent timeline. I will leave it to the experts to certify it as complete and correct, or not.