512M vs 512TR power difference - ECU, cams...

Hi,
thought Id start a thread to determine the exact nature of how the 512M makes its extra power.
yes I get that it has Ti conrods, which allows it to rev higher, but is that it?

are the cams different?
does the ECU have a different program in the eprom? I am presuming both use the 2.7 bosch

I was a position a while ago to do a comparison between a stock 2.7 348 eprom and an aftermarket one (eprom read level).

hoping someone has done that between the 512TR and M.. maybe..

 

The titanium rods are not to allow it to rev higher. They have the same redline. They were to reduce reciprocating weight only.

Very little difference between the motors. The titanium rods made possible reducing the crankshaft weight. The compression is just a little higher and the base model has a different ignition box. No 2 cars of the same model perform exactly the same. Some are better than others. I have driven 512s and Ms back to back. There is very little difference for all the hoopla. It was the impression of the guys I worked with at the time, and we all drove them regularly that an M performed within the window of a standard 512. A good running 512.

The specifications are all easily found with a simple perusal of the parts books. No need at all to fire up the internet wives tale machine.

 

The M engine has different cams, compression increase as already mentioned, the crank is lighter (rod and crank combined weight is 19 lbs lighter than the TR). The M crank is easily identified by what looks like a double bolt pattern where the flywheel mounts to it. The additional holes are not threaded, further weight reduction is my assumption. 20 more HP than the TR.

 

So basically not much difference! Do you plan to race someone?

 

Cams are exactly the same. Valve timing is exactly the same.

And I bet there is more than 20hp difference between TR motors anyway.

 

and the ECUs are the same? same mappings?

 

I answered that already.

 

I remember reading that the cams were different when I bought those crate engines 10+ years ago.

 

Same part numbers, same timing specs.

Ferrari always made them sound very special when there was in reality very little difference. That led to a lot or rumors about performance.
Driven back to back which I did many times and you cant tell. I had one as a regular client for years.

 

Here's one of the dyno sheets that came with a 96 M engine I bought. HP is not as advertised (444hp) but maybe once broken in it makes more.

I did a leak down test on all 3 engines that hadn't run since 96 and all 12 cylinders had 2% leak. I was impressed.
Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

I have a factory dyno report on a 360. It was 360HP. Supposed to be 400. Ferrari lies. They always have. According to a few I knew at the factory the only engines Ferrari made that that made made advertised power on the dyno was the F40 and the US versions made more than advertised power.

 

This is not relevant to this conversation, but the factory published BHP numbers were pretty accurate up into the early 1960s, then the advertising department took over.

 

Thats true. I was thinking really of post Enzo era. I have also been told comp engine figures were typically correct.

 

Brian: I understood your period of reference. As for comp engines, I agree. At least in the pre-1980 timeframe, we get similar dyno results to the original factory numbers for competition car motors.

 

Yes Ferrari lies about hp, the speedos are generous and for some magical reason a Fiat engine in a Dino makes more hp than the same engine when mounted in a Fiat.

 

I do concur regarding the Speedo.
I got one of those speedo corrector circuits, to make it match the GPS, or close enough.

 

the 512m vs 512tr debate has been going on since 1995.
to me it is also evidence of the greater fool theory.....ferrari took the 500 leftovers they were having a hard time selling, added about a pound of titanium, a big dose of ugliness and a bigger price tag, and people have been jacking it up ever since.
the good news is that if you actually like to look at your car without smirking or gagging, you can buy a 512tr for half the cost of an M and have exactly the same performance.

 

You can buy an M for the same price as a 512TR in the US and have a better and more rare car

You could also buy a Testarossa for half price and have a classier car.

 

a quick look at the auction price comparison over the last several years will deny your first statement.
and then the testarossa vs 512tr performance comparison casts shade on your second statement.

 

The 512TR actually corrected the flaws of the initial testarossa (and added some power, but that was not the most important), whereas the F512M is now valued mostly for its rarity.

 

That's why I wrote "same price as a 512TR in the US". The cars being flipped for a profit must come from somewhere.
On that note, you could argue Bat results show many are averse to search engines and find imaginary borders comforting.

Is it double the car? No. Is the Testarossa better than the Boxer? It also "corrected" the BB's "flaws".

In the end one's not necessarily better than the other - irrespective of cost, some would prefer the 365BB over the 512BB, the TR over the 512TR, the 512TR over the 512M, and vice versa.

Now, some of the prices for 355's and 328's. Who, what, why ... but I digress.

 

Actually only for its rarity.

 

nuff said


Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

you missed ALL the smileys.

lighten up francis

 

All good smiley

Any of the flat 12's are a great choice and some are bargains.

Speaking of the M - time machine: https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/1995-ferrari-f512-m-1