430 Ah the fun of a convertible..

Still a little high. It may still interfere with the correct operation of the roof. Anyway, try checking the resistance of pin 4 on 31H anyway (don't bother pulling it apart just yet). It will help you pinpoint the source of the remaining high resistance.

 

I don't think you will have problems unless you physically bent something by not having the correct microswitch signals going to the ECU. If the roof does work after the earth fix, just take it slowly to see if any roof elements are interfering with each other. Those flaps sound rather fragile.

 

Did you mean just disconnecting it or pulling it apart to see the wire colours?

 

Disappointing. I'm not sure if 2~5 ohms would be sufficient to upset the Roof ECU logic. Anyway, it's not ideal... and this discovery might help others.

Now I'm thinking of what other parts of the roof system might be affected if more than one pin is high resistance on the Roof ECU and 1Q/31H connectors.

 

For example: The engine lid microswitch wiring goes through connector 1Q/31H, but if that was high resistance, it would be a good thing. Open circuit/high resistance = lid closed.

Anyway, I'll let you get back to your Thanksgiving packing

 

I feel for you! Keep at it though, you will get it!

 

Very frustrating for sure! I gave in and bought a small reasonably lite Car Hauler about 10 years ago so I didn't have to always drive my Ferrari to the shop or for far away Track Events.

I know probably the last thing you want to hear but maybe someone can help you out but transporting it there for you or at least back from there in their trailer?

If I was near you I would offer that as a fellow Ferrari nut.

 

Seems odd to me, too, that Roof ECUs would need to be programmed, even though they can be fitted to the 360 and 430. The wiring/switches seem to be the same. The diagnosis chart is the same. If there are differences in roof geometry between the two models, I don't think it would make a difference because the operation is based on microswitch activation, not potentiometers. The Roof ECU talks to the Window ECU and the Instrument Panel, but I don't think there would be any differences in communication.

I just noticed that Google shows two numbers for roof ECUs
66234100
66455000

When I try to enter the first (earlier) number into, say, the Eurospares Search box, it doesn't show the first number (or any notes on supersession), but there are photos online of used ECUs with this number. Eurospares even has an old one for sale with the first number (but lists it under the new number)

https://www.eurospares.co.uk/Parts/66455000/Ferrari/Used/32861

I assume, because of this, there are no differences.

Anyway, you still have your earth/ground circuits to check from that plug underneath the ECU. We are not running out of ideas yet.

 

Correct. I was just concerned that there might other pins on that plug with high resistance that would affect roof operation. High resistance on the roof switch is good for roof operation.

 

Ah, thanks. That should be fine, bearing in mind what was said earlier

When you said all the switches were fine, how exactly did your tech determine this? I'm just wondering if your flap open/closed switches were properly checked.

i.e. E.F/A and E.F/Z.

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I'm worried about conflicts between the switches.

EFA can be checked by checking the resistance between pin 8 of the top ECU plug and earth. EFZ can be checked by using pin 9 and earth.

I assume logic "1" is high resistance and "0" is low resistance.

Does your roof pump motor make any noises at all, like it's trying to run?

 

I guess that puts us back at logic/ECU issues or, less likely, a pump issue.

We have to be 100% sure that the flaps are in the right position (by checking the flap microswitches). In theory, you could drive the flaps up and down by powering the flap motor directly from the lower ECU plug pins 9 & 10. The hard part would be figuring out the polarity for up/down.

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Power could be taken from the pump relay socket.

Since the flaps are currently up, I guess it wouldn't hurt testing the pump motor momentarily by briefly jumpering the pump relay. I'm just not sure in what direction the roof will try to go. I'll have to do some reading to see what position the hydraulic valves default to. There is a hydraulic diagram in the WSM, but I'll need to refresh my memory regarding the hydraulic symbology.

 

I didn't realise that the cover should start moving before the flaps are fully down:



Maybe I'm misunderstanding the operation of the switches and the flap geometry:

The roof ECU looks for these signals:

Flapmotor output open F.M/A = 1
Limit switch Flaps open E.F/A = 1
Limit switch Flaps closed E.F/Z = 0

I thought the second line of logic meant that the flaps should be fully down (open) before the next stage happened. Now I don't know how to interpret the signals. I guess you just have to make sure that they are correct.

 

Another thing which has been bugging me is the Window signal

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The Roof ECU is talking to the Window ECU to tell it to drop the windows, but after the windows go down, is the Window ECU telling the Roof ECU that the windows are down? Unfortunately, this is a digital signal and can't be checked with an ohmmeter or voltmeter.

 

Sorry, did you say the flaps are up or down at the moment? I'm mixing up my open/closed and up/down terminology.

 

I believe it's the case that when the ignition is off, all the valves default to open. That's why the top can be moved manually when the top is partially raised and the ignition is turned off.

So if power is briefly applied to the hydraulic motor, all that should happen is the pump comes on.

Note when the top pump first comes on, it goes at a high pitch until the first valve closes, then it goes to a power pitch sound.

In the WSM, section N, the order of things indicate that the motor isn't signaled on until the flaps are lowered fully.

This is copied from the WSM section N:

Soft top closing sequence

The soft top is closed by pressing the soft top closing control button (BVZ) for the entire length of

the operation ( N 1.03).

1.The side window lowering signal (SW) is sent to the ECU and brings pin 2, connector 3Q, to a low

level. When the windows are completely lowered, the power window ECU sends the side signal for

windows lowered . This brings pin 19 (SWID), connector 2Q, to a low level and allows the sequence

to continue. The signal for side widow lowering remains active for the entire soft top motion

procedure.

2. The flaps lowering control motor is activated. The correct opening of the flaps is ensured by the

flaps open micro-switch (EFA) which earths the corresponding pin.

3.The hydraulic pump is activated by controlling the relay built in the hydraulic unit, through pin 6,

connector 4Q. At the same time, the main solenoid valve (MN) and the solenoid valve for hook

activation are enabled (thereby ensuring that the hooks are closed). In this way, the cover activation

solenoid valve (MDZ) is detected as deactivated. This causes the rear protection pistons to open

the cover; The completely open position is signalled by the cover open micro-switches (EDA).

4. During the cover opening stage, the opening solenoid valve for the front part of the soft top

(MSDA) is activated. The secondary pistons for roof frame closing ensure that the front part of the

soft top and the fins are in a closed position.

5. The main pistons, controlled by activating the solenoid valve for operating the central part of the

soft top (MVZ), raise the soft top from its bay. Closing of the soft top micro-switch outside its bay

(EVZ) ensures the correct completion of this stage.

6.The cover is now closed by powering the solenoid valve for cover operation (MDZ). When the

closed position is reached, this is indicated by the cover closed micro-switch (EDZ).

7. The sequence continues by opening the hooks through the deactivation of the solenoid valve

operating the hooks (MVVZ) : when the hook opening micro-switches (EVVA L and EVVA R) signal

the complete hooks opening, the next stage is started.

8. The solenoid valve for opening the soft top front part (MSDA) is deactivated. Immediately

afterwards, the solenoid valve for closing the soft top front part (MSDZ) is activated. This causes the

secondary pistons for roof frame's closing to move the front part of the soft top forwards while

lowering the fins at the same time. When the micro-switch for front soft top back opens (ESDA), it

indicates the progress of the operation. This is completed when the hook opening micro-switches

(EVVAL and EVVAR) are no longer activated after the hooks have reached their housing on the

cross member.

9. The hooks are closed by activating the solenoid valve operating the hooks (MVVZ). The striker

plate micro-switches ((EVVDL and EVVDR connected in series to each other ) and the cross

member (EVVZ) indicate that the hooks have closed and that the front part of the soft top has

locked onto the cross-member.

10. After a two-second delay, the solenoid valves are deactivated and the motor which activates the

hydraulic pump is turned off, in order to ensure completion of the operations.

11.The operator then has 3 seconds to decide whether to open the windows at the same time. If

the operator keeps the soft top control button pressed down, the window raising procedure will take

place when the delay time limit is up. If the soft top control button is released, the windows will

remain lowered when the delay time limit is up. If the button is released and then pressed, before

the delay time limit is up, the window raising procedure will take place immediately. The window

raising control is activated by sending a signal with a frequency of 25 Hz to the power window

ECU for a period of 9 seconds.

 

Won't open valves allow hydraulic flow?

The hydraulic diagram is somewhat confusing...

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It looks like when the motor is activated, the fluid takes two paths. Some fluid is ported through the main hydraulic valve to the bottom of the F & D pistons to one side of the other pistons and some fluid is directly ported to the top of the D & F pistons and to the other sides of the other pistons. This suggests to me some kind of locking function, but you say that it's easy to move the roof with no power.
I'm not sure what the function of those boxes are with the X's in them and 0.3, etc labelled on the outside. Pressure restrictors?

If my understanding is correct, the valve solenoids fight the spring, moving the valve to the other position.

In the video, during the closing operation, the cover starts moving before the flaps have completely lowered. What exactly is the flaps open micro-switch (EFA)? Is "open", the moment the flap moves away from the fully up position? This doesn't make sense because the other switch is labelled the "closed" microswitch. There would be no point having two switches. One switch could easily show both fully closed and not fully closed.

I couldn't find any videos showing the movement of the flaps during opening sequence. Are they visible from the cockpit?

 

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Disregard.... Normally the motor wouldn't be running, so no pressure lock. Also, see next post...