F12 or 812?

here is a thread I started and just did an update, some great advice here that might help you..
https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/f12-improving-the-handling.665648/page-3

 

812 needs to go on a serious diet, feels very heavy and big.

 

Thanks for the reference, this should be very helpful!

Can anyone remark on whether or to what extent the 812 loses steering feel relative to the F12?

 

If the insinuation is that the F12 feels lighter, they weigh exactly the same, according to Ferrari.

 

I on the other hand had both F12 and 812 on a closed circuit. I couldn’t beleive how much better the 812 could put all that power down out of the corners. As well the rear wheel steering really shortened the cars wheelbase. It could dart around corners which really surprised me.


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I recall the reviews saying the same.

 

I thought the f12 weighed 30 kg less, but that’s substantially the same by percentage. Ferrari be wilin when it quotes these weights anyway.

But yes to be abundantly clear, I am not trying to insinuate that the 812 is way heavier than the F12. I was talking about _my_ f12 when I called it an absolute unit! I was saying that adding hp and rear steer and even more tire (812 has 275 fronts…) doesn’t address the key issue I have with my F12, which is that it’s too big and heavy, particularly for a 2-seater.

 

I bet the rear steer does give that feeling. I think this winds up being kind of like dynamic or speed adjusted steering racks, which honestly I’ve never been into. WRT reviews-I think a lot of the reviews of the f12 made it sound more taut and sharper than it is in person. It feels sharp because of the engine (which is truly as insane as the car mags say in my view) and because the steering is fast and brakes are strong, but it has that gt float suspension many have written on here about that was, I think, conveniently elided from a lot of the press on the car.

Clearly the only thing to do is find someone who’ll let me drive their 812 in a spirited fashion…

 

Both quoted at 1525 kg, dry.

If the F12 feels too big/heavy for your liking though, perhaps you should try an F8, or 296.

 

I weighed mine at 1685 kg with "all" light options, Fuel tank almost empty...

 

And is 812 heavier or lighter than F12 in general?

 

If the fuel tank almost empty weighs 1685, with full tank it will be 1757 kg or 3866 lbs. Thats pretty heavy.

 

It’s been a while since I drove an F12 but I remember it had that creamy, torquey feeling that the best V12s always give. Beautiful. But when the 812 came along it delivered handling and traction to match, which made the 812 a better car for me. To expect either of these cars to be light with a 6.5 litre V12 up front is unrealistic. It’s like one of the posters here who thinks the LaFerrari replacement should be a mid V12 (he might even have said M/T) with more horsepower, no ABS, airbags, traction control and 1,100kg. It just ain’t gonna happen. You have to accept it for what it is. To me the Ferrari V12 line has been a well-judged product for years, irrespective of weight.

 

I have a dumb question. The ferrari engines seem to have what appear like a cast iron intake/cam covers that must weigh quite a bit. Wouldn't Ferrari save a ton of weight just building more lightweight engine dressing? I know it looks super old school and classic, but that stuff feels like it's a bathtub material from 1950s like it would take an RPG but still survive. A bit overkill and probably adds a lot of weight.

 

Same...

 

Ok thats good

 

Let's say that they could have gone to the Valkyrie field, but that necessarily implied investing in a new V12.It s much more profitable for Ferrari to use a small well known base engine, and profitability is the priority objective since in terms of image, the badge is enough to ensure sales...
For me, Valkyrie would be better without hybridization !

 

The biggest problem with the 812 is its electric steering, I hate it... I feel like I can't feel the front end !

 

I have wondered about this too, and have noted that the track special cars have CF intake plenums since at least the Scud. I believe the ones on F12s (and the ones that look similar on other F-cars) are sand-cast aluminum or possibly even magnesium alloy though, and of course they're hollow, so there might not be as much weight savings to pick up there as you'd hope. Happy to step aside if someone knows what these are for a fact. Magnesium would be rad...

OTOH I get the sense that they just don't care about suspended weight altogether that much, which is kind of what I was complaining about earlier. I don't believe that Ferrari is trying to 'take care of the ounces', per the famous saw about lightening a burdensome load. Still a great car, but not a car that is as light as it reasonably could be. Of course defining 'reasonably' in such a context becomes hard, and I'm sure the fact that they use an aluminum chassis and bodywork is more effort than some would expect or hope for.

 

Can you elaborate? I drove multiple 812s at this point and I wouldnt call steering bad or not being able to feel anything. Some people talk about road feedback in context of losing grip and not feeling the point of adhesion of tires. Is that what you meant? Or did you mean just in general when car changes direction, it doesnt provide enough feedback?

I think the steering feedback is a ton better than Corvettes which share very similar geometry/dynamics. I am referring to C7 generation. It is better than F90 M5 or F80/G80 M3/M4. It is not as good as a Mclaren or a 911. But I think part of the problem is the weight and dimensions of the car. At 4,000 lbs, its 180 lbs shy of a full blown F90 M5. There is only so much tuning and suspension geometry can do/fix. A GT3 weighs 3180 lbs. A 675 LT weighs 3100 lbs. These are 800-900 lbs lighter cars that are also much smaller physically. A big million dollar boat and a sailboat will not feel the same way.

 

It's more up to the owners of the 812 to express themselves, but personally, when I got out of my F 12 to take a friend's 812, I didn't feel the front end and its level of exhaustion, there are far too many filters. For me, that's a point where I could never own an 812...

 

Gen2 EPAS is supposed to be better than Gen1 for most-all of the manufacturers. Certainly for Porsches it's supposed to be a pretty real step forward. But in my experience the hydraulic racks in the older generations of these cars are always better than the EPAS systems that have replaced them.* I was asking about the 812's rack because I was wondering if it did actually manage to overcome the apparent limitations of that technology, but as @day355 said it's unsurprising to hear that they haven't.

In regard to comparisons between the 812 and other EPAS cars, it's interesting to hear that it's good relative to other heavy front-engined** cars, but I'd expect that essentially none of these to have good feel. @MaranelloAllTheWay's remark about Mclarens having better feel is particularly unsurprising in light of this, because McLaren has elected not to switch to EPAS because they remain unconvinced by the amount of feel provided by those systems.

Cards on the table my F12 purchase was partly opportunistic--I found one for the right price that had reasonable color choices and I'd always wanted to be in control of that engine. But the thing that pushed it over the edge was realizing that it predated Ferrari's adoption of EPAS systems. I think it may be the last car Ferrari makes with good steering feel, at least for a long while. Who can say whether there'll even be steering to feel in 30 years?

*One alternative to 'EPAS for all of the future of S' is an idea I had a while back but have only seen implemented, in the context of a true hypercar, once (GMA T50). That vehicle (which is actually light) has EPAS that only connects to the steering rack at parking speeds, to make things like parallel parking less annoying. When the car is above like 10km/h it apparently 'disengages' somehow and doesn't impact the feel of the car 'on the roll' at all. This would be the ideal case, so Ferrari if you're listening, it's me...please implement a switchable system!

**Yes, I know that the F12 is front-mid engined. I spun mine the other day (weird suspension lurch at mercifully low speed on a too-cold day) so I can tell that there's some real weight in the aft of the car. But it has a ton of weight over its front tires, and its weight isn't low to the earth, so its suspension spring rates and so forth do not work like the 40-60 weight distributions you'd see in true rear-mid cars, like an elise or an old-school v8 ferrari. Other Front-engined transaxle cars will wind up being pretty similar, and cars like the C7 that have pretty light engines and move some other heavy components to the rear should be too.

 

The first thing to do with the F 12 is to change the springs (Novitec, or TDF), decrease the ride height and finally make a very good alignement. After that, it's fantastic, and the hydraulic steering is very communicative, even more so by adjusting the caster angle !

 

Alignment and tires make huge difference on F12. I too don't like the awkward feel of 812 4WS whilst navigating curves.

 

I agree !