F12 or 812?

I read about that in the other thread (thanks, BTW!). My question is how much that will **** my highway and around town comfort. Well that and how much it'll mess with resale.

 

They are made of aluminium.

The Valkyrie is a 3 million Quid, rear-mid engined hypercar. I don't see how it can be compared with the 812 replacement. The Valkyrie should be compared to the F250. BTW, if Newey didn't think that the hybrid system added to the performance, he wouldn't have included it.

 

I was talking about F 250, not 167

 

Steering feel gets misunderstood in my opinion. Try an old 911 like a 930 CS or an original lotus Elise. There you have steering feel. The F12 does not really have steering feel. The hydraulic steering makes the steering feel nice and confidence inspiring, except the rest of what goes into chassis feel is set against that. It’s why the car feels like an excess of power over traction. The McLaren system feels nice too and has more feel (the light and shade of the road surface and vibrations from not the angle of the road but the tarmac quality). Thing is, excessive ‘steering feel’ is not always helpful. In some old 911s you have all the information. But sometimes you don’t want it all. If you ask for directions, you want to hear, “drive until you reach the shell gas station, take a left and it’s exactly a mile”. Not “keep going, past the green park bench, near a nice coffee shop that uses speciality coffee from Columbia, past the flower seller who sells the most wonderful roses, past the school where the children will probably be playing, until you reach a shell gas station…”. With the wide front tyres needed to control all that front weight, you get bad tramlining the more dialled in the steering is for feel. So today’s engineers choose to keep the information from the steering to what’s relevant to you. You might not like that philosophy but they do it for good reason. Do you really want an 800hp half-million dollar car chattering away at the helm with every imperfection from the road being transmitted to you? Works in a small 1100kg 911, not so much here.

The 812 epas system works in conjunction with the rws system and flows nicely enough. No, it does not have feel in the sense that most people mean, but you might argue that flow and chassis feel (as opposed to just steering feel) are more important. Chassis feel comes from the tech, tuning and geometry plus something very important - the seat. Get the sofas and you have much less connection compared to the racing seats. Both the F12 and 812 have set ups that suit a heavy-ish front-engined V12 and they’re good, F12 slightly better possibly, but neither are close to that old 930 CS or some of its brothers. The 812 counters with better traction and a more planted feel. It’s a clear improvement in that regard. Every car can feel better with a more sporting geo but that also comes with some drawbacks.

Epas systems are much better these days, without quite being a match for the best hydraulic systems (though a good epas can be better than an average hydraulic). They bring other advantages though. The 812 flows beautifully, with great chassis feel and accurate, precise steering. I’ve only driven examples with the racing seat though. I think I’d probably rather drive an F12 on the limit if it had the racing seats than an 812 with sofas, that’s how much the seat difference is to me. And it’s far more important than epas or hydraulic, presuming a decently engineered epas system.

 

@day355 Have you used comp? I'm curious about your opinions.
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812 is superior in every metric.
Especially getting its increased power down more effectively it’s safer on the street.


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just in the passenger seat !

 

Engine and gearbox, certainly! but the drection and the steering rear wheels... No, it's not for me. A number of 812 owners returned to the F 12 after...

 

The availability of open top in the 812 alone is enough to tip scales. I do greatly prefer the look of the f12 though.

 

Interestingly, F12tdf has 4WS as well, but does NOT have that awkwardness of 812 steering.

 

I will guess that a larger number went from F12 to 812[emoji12]
To each their own.
In any event super excited for 167.
Thank you for your contributions.


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At least 2 members here went from 599GTO to F12. Go with what you like.

 

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So thankful to have purchased your 812 Superfast from San Diego! Loving every second of it, and thanks for keeping it in such great condition. Would love to connect sometime and hear about your adventures with the car. Was strongly considering a Grigio Ferro F12 but ultimately landed on your old stallion. Cheers, and hope you are enjoying the F8 Spyder!

 

Wow this is a surprise post!
Great to see she went to a fellow member.
I will send you a pm shortly.
Best


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Guys,
Can we keep this going? Those of you with signifigsnt driving time in both share your opinions pls.

 

Some of these older posts didn’t age well.
From here 812’s went up in price $75k.
Still prob $50k higher than 2020.

Speaking to the comparison the 812 is clearly superior for performance, handling, stability, interior, and technology.
Unless you don’t care for it’s aggressive look then settle for F12. Still an incredible machine.
Can’t go wrong with either. Just drive them both and make your own decision.



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Mike you've made mutliple posts on here pushing the 812, but not all of us want the newest/fastest/most advanced car. There are those of us who simply prefer the F12 and aren't "settling". By your same logic the 488 and F8 are superior to the 458, but there are many of us who would still prefer a 458. When I was in the dealer a couple months ago for service and was waiting in the showroom, one of the salesperson asked me what car I currently have, and I said an F12. He said "Well It's tough selling a newer Ferrari to an F12 owner, but if you'd consider parting with yours we'd be happy to have one in our inventory." Choice in cars if very much an emotional decision, and I know I'm not the only one for whom the post-Pininfarina cars don't evoke the same emotions.

 

As an F12 (and 458) owner, I fully endorse this post.

 

Agree.
With the fugly looks of 812, and the decidedly more untamed nature of the F12, the latter is arguable the smarter buy. Raw cars sell over the long haul.
I had several 458’s, sold and got a Pista, hated it relative to the rawness and excitement the 458’s provide. Sold and went back to 458 and a few loose screws around here had a hard time understanding it. To each their own face palm.

 

There are multiple emotion-evoking things missing from post-LDM post-Pinin post-NA cars.

 

SETTLE??!!!! Hahahahaaaaaaaa NOT!

 

NA & Pininfarina cars are the BEST IMO and I've no desire for anything newer! Especially a hybrid with batteries - just say no... Sure, I'll admit the performance benefits are there, but I just don't care.

 

Pininfarina were thinking good thoughts when they penned the F12

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Driving an ugly car is like making love to any ugly woman. Just say no.