In between, they are the best racing team of the moment, which is what really matters if you follow F1 !!!
They can do whatever they want....I dont give a rat's rear end to RB or how they spend their sugary cafeinated drink' profits My point is ....F1 never needed RB to promote the sport....Never did, doesnt need it now, and never will.... Remove RB from F1 .... and ... nothing would happen.... let Andretti/Cadilac replace them.... fine with me. Remove SF from F1 ..... and F1 would never be the same again
True, They will be quickly forgotten like Benetton was.. A fantastic team of mercenaries.[/QUOTE] Wait, Cooper, BRM, Brabham, and Williams too, like Red Bull they never build any street cars, but gave Ferrari a good spanking on the track !! Mercenaries ? I don't think so; just very good garagists getting their **** together at time !
Red Bull was founded by the legendary Jackie Stewart and later sold road cars under the Jaguar brand. They were funded by Ford then and now by another corporation, but it´s the same thing. Is the F1 I like? No. Do they have my sympathy? No. But it´s the sport we have to live with.
Wait, Cooper, BRM, Brabham, and Williams too, like Red Bull they never build any street cars, but gave Ferrari a good spanking on the track !! Mercenaries ? I don't think so; just very good garagists getting their **** together at time ![/QUOTE] The reality is very few long term F1 teams were also road car makers... Ferrari, Lotus, Mercedes, Aston Martin, Jaguar, Toyota, Honda, Renault, McLaren... Alfa and Maserati in the early days. various parts of those marque's engines and components were in F1 for along time, but very few stayed as a full factory effort for long - that is why Ferrari is so special. right now only Ferrari and Mercedes can say they have been stalwarts in F1. Technically you can add in Porsche, Bugatti, and Talbot Lago... but that was a long while ago.
Mercedes and Renault were pioneers in Grand Prix at the beginning of last century, well before F1 existed. Ferrari came 50 years later.
yes ... but Grand Prix vs. F1 is not really the same. then we could talk about Panhard, DeDion, etc.... but the cars then were basically road going cars, lightened or strengthen for the specific races - Paris- Bordeaux etc... But yes, fundamentally they were car makers as well as "F-1" participants. With the cars and rules not really being internationally codified until 1950 its hard to really point to pre WWII racing as F-1... but there is an argument for the racing during the 30's as being as close to F1 as possible.... still the drivers of that age were spectacular, true supermen! Having had a go in a 1930's Type 35 ... albeit very short drive ... you had to be strong, deaf, crazy and brave all at the same time.
There was a World Manufacturers' Championship as early as 1925 (FIAT, Bugatti, Delage, Alfa Romeo, Sunbeam) that lasted until 1930, run by the AIACR (the FIA of the time), with some technical regulations (chassis size, engine capacity, etc ...). This is how the single-seater came about. From 1932, the AIACR organised the European Drivers' Championship as Formula Libre under a limit weight formula (900kg minimum weight until 1934, and them 750kg maximum weight), in which Mercedes, Maserati, Auto-Union and Alfa Romeo competed. It lasted until 1939.
Sure, when compared to 2017 cars. Ok....not fair. But how about a consistent top 3 car with very few tactical/pit errors by the team. Can we have that???
Mercedes is a rebranded team created in 2010. Yes, it has some vague relationship with Tyrrell, but for me McLaren and Williams have more history than them. Heck, even Sauber.
The reality is very few long term F1 teams were also road car makers... Ferrari, Lotus, Mercedes, Aston Martin, Jaguar, Toyota, Honda, Renault, McLaren... Alfa and Maserati in the early days. various parts of those marque's engines and components were in F1 for along time, but very few stayed as a full factory effort for long - that is why Ferrari is so special. right now only Ferrari and Mercedes can say they have been stalwarts in F1. Technically you can add in Porsche, Bugatti, and Talbot Lago... but that was a long while ago.[/QUOTE] Brabham builds a road car these days: https://www.brabhamautomotive.com/bt62r/
Brabham builds a road car these days: https://www.brabhamautomotive.com/bt62r/[/QUOTE] yes, but they are no longer in F1... sadly.
100% correct. The obvious difference being the type of car you could use...open v. closed. engine capasity etc... the other thing is the types of races - at that time the races were determined by the national auto clubs length course etc. ... it was hard to really judge who was the "champion" because not all races had all the cars or drivers. thrilling and dangerous none the less.
The limits of the simulator - Sainz: 2024 Ferrari F1 car “behaving differently” in the simulator Ferrari’s 2024 Formula 1 car is “behaving differently” in the simulator as the team seeks to eliminate the major performance swings that hobbled it this year, according to Carlos Sainz. The Scuderia narrowly missed out on second in the constructors’ standings by three points to Mercedes but collected fewer than half the points of runaway title winner Red Bull. While the 2023 car could compete in qualifying, with Sainz and Charles Leclerc notching seven pole positions, race pace was lacking. It also suffered from an unstable rear end, which the team sought to solve by moving the set-up towards understeer. This particularly hurt Leclerc. As Ferrari develops a new concept for the 2024 season, Sainz reckons the car model already feels different to drive in the team simulator. Asked about the progress, he said: “I think we're going to need to wait until testing. I think it's incredibly difficult to know. “The car in the simulator is behaving differently, for sure. But I think until we put the car in 100 kilos [race fuel] and used tyres, it's going to be impossible to see how the car is actually treating the tyres, treating the pace and how our race pace is going to be affected.
Hypothesis : 1/ They are discovering the car is already a turd in the simulator then the choosen words by Sainz.. 2/ Car is demonstrating some real progress in the simulator but Vasseur decided a low profile attitude with the media. I would prefer the second explanation by far ..
I dont know how can anyone make statements about the 2024 car, using a simulation or a model in a computer...and conclude the "simulated" car is behaving differently....nothing replaces real testing in a real track Till then, its all bs to me
I thought the same but according to Vasseur the last generation of simulator is incredibly reliable to check car’s potential.Recently he said they already knew SF23 was full of flaws even before the initial shakedown in Fiorano..
Very technical and interesting interview from Cardile ! https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-cardile-ecco-gli-errori-che-non-faremo-sulla-ferrari-2024/10557779/
Via Autosport - --"The problem with tyre wear is how the car operates, and how the car operates is absolutely ruled by the aero behaviour of the car. So, everything is down to aero unless the suspension design is massively wrong." As its 2023 chassis design was not compatible with the aerodynamic direction it wanted to pursue, the team shifted focus to its 2024 car relatively early, which is set to be a full redesign. Instead of bringing massive updates, it began experimenting more with its set-up choices after the summer break to accelerate that learning for next year. "Next year's car will turn the page," added Cardile. "We kept the target that we set ourselves but we understood that to achieve this target we need different contents on the car. So, next year's car has been designed differently from the 2022 one." Ferrari's goal for 2024, then, is not only to develop a car with better peak performance, but one whose performance is less 'fragile' and doesn't just work well in specific circumstances, such as in Singapore where Sainz kept Red Bull from a clean sweep of race wins. "The peak performance is probably not miles away from Red Bull, but we need the full commitment of the driver, we need the right ambient conditions, we need the right combination of corners," Cardile summed up. "We need a lot of stuff which makes the performance difficult to repeat during the race stint, when the tyres start to give up and the balance of the car changes. The impression we have is that the Red Bull's platform is more robust than ours. "Red Bull is demonstrating that it's not impossible [to have a car that performs everywhere]. It's just a matter of hard work with the right targets."-- 0
Wow, what reassuring thinking- Red Bulls platform is more robust than Ferrari... outstanding info and intel. I really hate to be negative but I see nothing that has changed and the team will continue to flounder until it gets a better design team in place.... BTW F-1 sims are amazingly accurate to real world, so I think what they see in the sim is 99% of what they see on the track.
Let us hope they have sourced solutions, within the budget to be more competitive. But all major teams are .7 or more off the pace of MaxBull. Horner said he could have driven faster, but we know you only use the optimal power for a given situation/maintain a lead and manage it from there. So lets call it 1-full second of time. Who has a viable platform to over take RedBull given that. That platform of chassis- THE AERO and PU with reliability and the driver or drivers able to drive mostly mistake free, qualy well and fight. Hmmmmmmmmmmm tall order it appears lol. We hope for the best as always during this season free time.
I fear that hope IS the only strategy they have. I read in Business F1 about the battle between John Elkan and Vignea and Lapo Elkan and Piero Ferrari on bringing back Montezemolo for the F 1 team. Piero and Lapo are for it, Elkan and Vignea are against it... also the internal fight between the Angelli heirs... With that as a background, I dont have any hope of future success. While Piero is the only Ferrari left in the company - I'm not sure he is right on much but I do think one solid leader for the F1 team is needed and its not Vignea ( or however you spell his name ) ....
Im happy Carlos is confident. Yet Mclaren won no GP's and was not close to really winning one. MaxBull was not stressed and had reserve pace in the form of Max driving. I dont sense and better configuration that the current RB machine. Sainz: McLaren F1 turnaround shows what Ferrari can achieve over winter Carlos Sainz is "perfectly confident" Ferrari can catch Red Bull for the start of 2024 based on the mid-season gains made by Formula 1 rival McLaren.
Today Vasseur talked to the Italian journalists for Christmas ( traditional meeting every year) To summarize : They are believing nobody could beat Red Bull next year. Ferrari is making good progress with their new car but they won’t to say nothing because it all depends on others improvement either.
