812 Replacement Rumors

One of my best friends owns an STO and a pista coupe (and spider) and drives 488 Challenge. He mentioned the STO truly is a race car for the road. But that's also what's probably stopping him from ever driving it. He also mentioned after a few laps in the STO he was driving not far off his driving times in the Challenge.
Having said that it does share all characteristics of a true race car, noisy, no comfort and eye bleeding bad looks.
I still haven't driven the STO (but have 10,000miles in my Pista), so can't comment from my own perspective. But to me it sounds like a package only a true trackday enthousiast would enjoy off the track. When you could buy the real deal and drive on track with a proper focussed car.
GT3 or STO, I would favor the GT3 (after the Pista!)

 

At least it's a relatively simple fix with an aftermarket exhaust. A bad (touch controlled) interior is unfixable. But oh well I'd still buy it anyway because in these cars all I care about is getting in and driving, I don't use the infotainment much after the initial set up.

 

Have you met any owner that likes the haptic controls and infotainment system in the new cars?

 

The violet and the blue specs makes me nauseous, the green one looks more tolerable compared to the other two

 

We seem to have gone off-topic. I think this all started with our obsession about weight, body flex, and suspension settings. With regards to the F167 less weight and smaller size should have beneficial effects on handling. I agree that a very rigid frame, such as a carbon fiber tub with rigid suspension settings does not make for a great drive on the street. Since the F1 67 will be an aluminum frame, and although rigid, will still have some flex, particularly as a GTS and softer suspension settings would be preferred for the street. I recall when I switched from an AMGSLS convertible, which had a very stiff suspension to a 458 spider I was impressed with the ride comfort of the 458 and stability over rough roads in comparison to the AMG. This was without compromising the handling sharpness.
I think Ferrari knows what driving characteristics its customers want, with some exceptions, which is a supercar for the streets and not for the track.
Would I love a 3000 pound carbon fiber, 800 hp V12 daily driver? Sure but the cost would probably be prohibitive as to achieve those goals and meet government regulations.


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Ferrari should take notes from VW who have come to realize that the adoption of haptic controls, as a result of their race to compete with Tesla in terms of big screens, no buttons etc. has been a failure, and that the right solution is to revert back to having physical buttons and dials.

 

Bentley has figured out a good combination of timeless design (buttons and not too over complicated) with all the modern features (screen that can be hidden).

GMA and Pagani have gone the same route and modern Bugattis have always emphasized a clean and smart interior design.

Imagine a recreation of the 250 dashboard with all analogue gauges, a push of a button one (or more) gauge flips to reveal a screen on the other side for Carplay etc. similar to what Zenvo has done in the new Aurora.

 

I also heard the rumours that VW is going back to "more" physical buttons, but have they officially announced that or even done it in any of their new cars? My bet is if they haven't, they will just make the haptic slightly better and try to make it feel more like real buttons.

 

I get why a stiff suspension is often ill-suited for the street, but why is a rigid chassis a bad thing? A rigid chassis should make a good suspension better by making its job more predictable, no?

That said, pretty sure the aluminum chassis in the F167 will be plenty rigid for its purpose. (This is an engineering question, not throwing stones at Ferrari chassis.)

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As an aside, a suspension that's too stiff is more likely to allow the tires to lose contact with the pavement. The suspension needs to be able to soak up bumps.

One of the primary reasons race car suspensions are typically very stiff is to produce high and stable downforce. Stiffer means you can run lower ride heights (more efficient diffusers) and will get less aerodynamic instability from pitch and roll. It can also be necessary to prevent bottoming in a high downforce car at high speed.

I suspect that this has led to some degree of misunderstanding that stiff = fast. Within reason, it does help with quick direction changes. But I'd bet that most race cars would have considerably softer springs and longer suspension travel if the engineers weren't worried about the aerodynamic effects.

 

It's been confirmed by Thomas Schafer. I doubt Ferrari would make a public statement like that, but I hope they're listening and silently follows the same route.
"The man in charge of the VW core brand said touch controls "definitely did a lot of damage" and the company "had frustrated customers who shouldn't be frustrated." Thankfully, a fix is on the way as the German brand will get rid of the climate control sliders and haptic steering wheel buttons."

I know their upcoming ID2's interior is designed with this in mind.

 

Agreed ! But it would mean that there would be people with a real car culture in the marketing department, who have the notion of beauty and timelessness... Where are they ??? The biggest problem at Ferrari at the moment is the car culture close to zero.
When you want to make beautiful modern counters and gauges, you're going to poach from Swiss watchmakers, not from Apple ! In any case, they know that the customer is patiently waiting for his turn to buy a new product.

 

Car culture means the best engineering and car dynamics, not 1950s gauges.

 

I don't think you'll ever understand that you buy a car that should give you emotion. I'm talking about car lovers, art in motion, the pleasure of the 5 senses, no numbers that no one can use or a stopwatch that no one can reproduce. And then you know what, the story proves me right because the millions of § are about the cars in my description, not the ones from a video game that are already obsolete on many levels.
Take a good look at the Icona series,more conservative and evocative of the brand's culture.... an SP 3 is less efficient than a simple 296, and yet between the two, who would choose the 296, no one !!!

 

I guess you don't understand Enzo's edict then. Ferrari sold engines (performance in today's terms) and threw in the car for free. I highly doubt that Enzo cared about the gauges, which were there just to tell to the driver what the engine did. The last think that imparts emotion is a gauge!

By the way, your darling STO has a digital dash also...

 

Well I think you are wrong about gauges not imparting emotion. Maybe a cluster of real gauges don’t add anything to your experience. But they certainly evoke different emotions from others.

The arguments are a bit silly to me. On the one hand, nobody will want to fly a P51 in a dogfight against a glass paneled F22. No comparison on performance. Both inspire emotions but if you have ever flown in a P51, there is nothing like it. A whole different sensory experience. I’m thinking also the difference between a modern business jet and an old Beech Twin or DC3.


Who knows what Enzo would think today?

Nobody.


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I don't know much about fighter planes, but I am a retired Army Officer, who has commanded numerous different tanks. Well, the newer ones were always better! I really don' t want to command a Chieftain versus a Challenger 2.

 

Tell that to Singer, Pagani, Bugatti etc etc

 

There is no grace in LCD panel.
I just want actual needle and dial!!!

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Seems like this is arguing about the wrong points. It’s easy to understand why some prefer modern dash and some prefer old-style. That’s just simple preference and we each have our own. The main objection to haptic is not appearance but that they don’t fulfill their brief so they are a design fail. The SF90 was launched citing HOTW and EOTR - hands on the wheel and eyes on the road. The Ferrari haptics take my eyes off the road for far too long. You can’t alter the satnav while driving, it’s basically impossible, choosing radio channels etc. impossible too. I think they are trying to take that on board and must have received lots of feedback forms (including mine) saying the same.

The haptic argument is a bit like VAR in football. Technically it’s a better solution to providing much more functionality and information in a few buttons - dials and switches would bring the problem that they don’t cover enough functionality. But as with the Video Assistant Referee, its implementation is the issue. In both cases the result is poor but it’s not necessarily the idea that’s wrong. Easy solution. Employ some common sense. Turns out, as with most things in life, common sense is not so common.

 

Exactly.

I would trim my stable down considerably to have a Singer and Pagani.

Hmmm…. Would I really?


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Back on topic, I popped into my local dealer today to ask about the F167 order process and the salesperson said that they can take names / expressions of interest but until its announced there are no deposits being taken. Interestingly, he said that to his knowledge, it will be a car available to ordinary customers from the outset, not just the 'top' or VIP level customers only. He said he'd give me a call once it's announced, lets see...

 

Sounds like the goal is to fill the order books to re-inforce/enhance the stock price.

I predict production will be absolutely glacial (with the FUV taking up most of the V12 production), Top/VIPs will likely still receive first allocations, taking an order does not equal a build slot...

 

The idea with haptics is to make them so bad and unusable , the driver decides the best course of action is EOTR and HOTW and don’t bother with the haptics…pure genius!


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The old argument about tech vs emotion...

My two cents, in case anyone is interested: Ferrari is not, or at least shouldn´t be, about nostalgia. That´s what Morgan is for. The strong selling point of Ferrari is that they have both things right (form/function, etc...). Sometimes they get it better than others, but at least they try, while Singer, Pagani and others already have surrendered.

That´s the reason I´m quite sceptical about those Icona cars. I have to admit they got the SP3 damn right, but the SP1 was a shameless cash cow.

 

Machs nicht. If the car already looks like a dog aka the current lineup, the interior (a few flees) won’t matter.


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