Market Prices 575 Manual vs 575 F1 (conversion costs) vs 550?

Exactly what I am thinking... I'll get to enjoy the car more, and at least get my investment in the 6 speed back if / when I sell her.

 

Your insights on the 550 market are much appreciated. Any comments (here or on BaT) re new 550 offering (Black/black, 13k miles) on BaT? Auction ends on a Wednesday!

 

I think that @Ferrari55whoa saw this car in person. Can you expand?

Looking at mileage and recent black sales, I would be shocked if it isnt $250K+

 

The Black one on BaT looks good to me. Seems to have recent service and repair of a few common items. Interior leather looks a little dry. Few sticky buttons. Alarm red light is on. Likely siren battery or replace. Easy DIY. Driver side headlight gasket needs to be replaced. Passenger side airbag cover. Back shelf carpet. All pretty minor stuff and not uncommon. Only two things that could hold it back are Black/Black which is not very popular although I think they look great in Black, and previous no sale at relatively low bid. But I consider that to be opportunities to get a nice car for potentially a bargain. I am pretty sure BaT set a pretty low reserve on it given its NS history. Would be great to hear what @Ferrari55whoa has to say about it based on seeing it up close and personal.

 

The Black 550 does appear decent on paper. My personal approach to any online auction these days would be to discount for unknowns. Savvy sellers are well versed in navigating BaT. Buying in person is a totally different level of comfort. Admittedly, I bought my 575 sight unseen on 12/31. So probably should take some of my own advice…

The blue EAG 575 is another story altogether. Very odd path that car took to BaT:

- Art tried to retail, presumably to try to create a market that never came to fruition, continually lowering the price
- then picked P Car Market which is an “off broadway” platform for a Ferrari… had a predictably abysmal result
- then was offered with another shot-in-the-dark” asking price after the auction fell flat
- finally, shows up on by BaT very shortly after the PCar failure​

We all know my opinion of EAG V12 conversions by now, so no need to harp on it. I think this is simply the conversion hierarchy crystallizing; we have factory gated, OEM conversions by leading shops, then aftermarket conversions like EAG (with multi piece turrets and cables), and the variations in between. I think the conversion conversation took off in 2021 without most people considering how the difference in conversions is significant vs nuanced, which is now coming to life.

The Argento OEM 575 conversion on BaT not long ago evidences the hypothesis. That car was extremely questionable otherwise but still took $185k to bring home. Imagine a clean 12K mile TDF 575 with an OEM conversion…

 

Of that three tiered hierarchy, only one is dynamic. The other two, to my knowledge, are fixed quantity. As time goes on, the aftermarket conversions will reduce the remaining factory F1s, one car at a time day after day year after year, as more enthusiasts become owners. Eventually, there could be a run on the remaining F1s (575, 599, 612, 355, 360, 460) due to rarity. And it wouldn't shock me to see some unconvert the aftermarket manuals back to F1. EAG and anyone else in this space should publish how many conversions of each model done and continuously track who leads that market. I don't think the conversion thing is a fad, this is becoming as accepted and mainstream in Ferrariland as Tubis and HE spacers, yes of course with premium resale value going to OEM, as usual, as always. If we were in Vegas, I'd like to see the odds of Ferrari making these parts again.

 

Im predicting it is going to chill somewhat, and I’m definitely considering the blue car and its next auction result as a bellwether. If enough fail to meet expectations, that may give at least some potential converters pause regarding non-OEM. I just saw where someone is asking $45,000 OBO for OEM parts on eBay; you still need $3500 worth of ECU tuning and who knows what else on top of that.

Obviously, I converted, went OEM, and I think by now everyone here is getting sick of my perpetual stoke BUT - I would NOT have paid $45,000 for OEM parts plus labor and electronics (though I will admit it may have been a possibility if I somehow could have known just how much I’d love the result). I suspect quite a few others will feel the same way, especially if you just bought the car and are not intimately aware of its potential needs.

Seems there are very few shops getting the aftermarket right, and it’s becoming less of a secret.

We will see, I suppose…but suffice to say, I’m interested to see how this one pans out.

 

How many complete OEM parts exist on shelves in the world today, by model? My impression is they're as rare as 575 HGTC wheels. Therefore, the only option - to those who prefer manual - will be aftermarket. Assuming the hunger to shift manually ain't going away, and Ferrari doesn't make these parts any more, aftermarket is a long tail.

 

Agree. And the after market kits will become better and better until equal or better than OEM as demand outpaces supply and engineering investment by the shops doing it catches up.

 

Maybe so, but in order for F1s to become sought after rarities one must assume there are thousands of people lining up to invest that kind of scratch in a “non-investment” Ferrari. Maybe I’m crazy, but I just don’t see it.

edit: I should probably say around a thousand, not thousands

 

I think we are agreeing that F1’s will never be super valuable, but the conversions will be.

but even with the conversion, the 575 will never be a 550 from the investment side imho. The difference between analog and digital driving experience will promote the 550 like we see now. Just like we see with 930’s.

 

Maybe, then again there are what? 50% more 550s out there? If people treat them like aircooled 911s (which seems likely), I realize that will make little difference.

 

I definitely would not consider the 575 to be digital! I think it’s more like comparing Porsche 993 to 964.

 

I must wholeheartedly agree with this.

 

Also important to remember not all Ferrari buyers are thinking of resale value when following the heart. Not for a second did I think buying a 599 to convert with aftermarket parts was a bold investment bet. I was thinking.. stick front engine Enzo for under 200?! Yes please!

 

Brad- The 550 actually has more ECUs than the 575M. The only thing more analog about the 550 is the throttle cable, which I can do without and makes for pretty crude ASR. Same for the fuel return system. Both engines are controlled by dual ignition/injection Motronic ECUs. Both have adjustable shocks, both have ABS and ASR. Both have fuel pumps buried in the tanks. Just in all cases the 550 ECUs, etc. are a generation older and cruder. Shifters and clutches on 3 pedal versions are identical, as are brakes except for one rear piston size. Afraid the old more analog song does not fly.

 

I interpreted his 'digital vs analog' as a metaphor for paddle shift vs clutch/stick, not literally digital as in chips and tech.

 

Yup, it’s about feel and experience and we are all entitled to our own. I may not have as much time in a 575 as many, but I do have back to back track and street time in them and that is my take away. It’s also the takeaway of many a buyer, as noted by a great many others who are buying 550s for far greater prices than 575s.

Feel, emotion and experience are not necessarily logical things supported by stats and numbers, they are built from the time driving certain cars. For example, we would all agree that a 90’s 911 is better than a 930 by any statistic, but the experience and emotion support something different. Much like a 360 cs or a 430 scud is emotionally more appealing than those special editions after them. Same as a bmw e46 m3 is a more emotional and desired driving experience than a current m4. Drive by wire cars generally just feel different and give a different experience.

in my 15 plus years racing cars, tuning and building euro sports cars as a profession, private coaching challenge and cup drivers and being chief instructor for Ferrari/Porsche dealer, I have a lot of time in these cars and the special ones. I base my opinions on my experiences, the conversations with clients and customers and feedback from the other owners in our circles.

there are just some cars that are special in the way they make a driver feel. This is not a universally supported opinion, but I would say the current market supports a sense that the 550 is more worthy of investment than the 575, even with so many more 550s being produced. Just an opinion of course, no more valid or invalid than yours or anyone else’s. =)

How would you explain the significant delta in valuation of 550s and 575f1s?

 

Btw, this is not to say the 575 is not a great car, because it is. It’s just a different car than a 550. In my opinion of course.

 

Could it not just come down to the manual/f1 difference? I still manual 575s fetching more than 550s.

 

The manual does make a significant difference from my experience. I think that the price difference in OE 575 6mt comes down to the rarity of the car from an investment standpoint, but yes, you are onto something. The manual does make the 575 much more engaging imho and give you an experience that you may not get otherwise.

somepeople love the f1, and that is cool. I understand why they do.

 

That has to account for a fair amount of it. Also, much like with air cooled Porsches, some people - not necessarily anyone here - are simply under the ether - buying into the mystique. We have to remember that not all buyers of even our great cars are so refined.

 

The delta is due to the Manuel in the 550 vs. the F1 in the 575. If the 575s were all manual, there wouldn’t be a delta. Buyers are simply choosing the manual car vs F1.

 

The legend of the 930 is better than the actual experience. I had the ‘89 5 speed 930. It was fun, but not nearly as great as the hype. It was a childhood dream to have one, but I sold it to get my Dino.