EFI Boxer

Mine was all stock and not long after I bought it. I was disappointed with the number especially when the 3.4 V8's carb engines I build make 335HP and look 100% stock.

 

I will say with the stock CIS you can still make much more power with a cam change despite the restrictive intake.

 

I need to clarify something, you were the passenger, not the driver in that CIS car as it was a clients car I needed to test drive post rebuild anyway. You drove my BB, that was a fun day watching someone who could drive, you stretched its legs without being abusive. I was talking to someone about that last week in fact.

 

That is correct. We can go further and say you didnt run the BBI to redline as the motore was new and fresh. In any event it was evident that there was way more power and tq, and that at 5k rpm the power was still building fast. think were alle estimating that the limits of the cis and intake is around 400 hp, but also way more tq. It is also unlikely that the CIS cams and pistons will be as naturally Revy as the Koning was. In that regard while a modified upgraded BBI motor may make a significantly faster car than a stock BB its characteristics will be somewhat different. It will also be tractable as BBIs are.

Thank you or the compliment of stretching the legs. Many drivers come from muscle cars which are very much about stomping on the gas and getting thrown back in the seat. Older Ferraris can disappoint muscle drivers as their power curves and speed is different. Stretching the legs is an apt description. Years ago someone said of a 250 ferrari, it felt slow at first but just keep coming and didnt slack off as the speedo needle rose through the gears. Pouring on the coals through the gears, keeping it on the boil, and thats how theyre best driven/enjoyed, alas one needs the space and roads to do so, and in the modern world thats somewhat of a rare comodoty. One of the reasons a BBI works, as when you're not pouring on the coals, its motor is really still a *****cat.

As with a good woman its about finesse to extract the rewards, or I suppose an more pc description is its like playing a fine musical instrument. Boxers need a firm hand, but are incredibly unforgiving of clumsy hands. Same principles apply in a track car, where carrying momentum, being smooth makes you so much faster. That's the joy in driving boxers, learn the car as it tells you what works and does not, then you have symphony.

To me a boxer feels like a really comfy(smooth ride doesn't beat you up) track car experience on the road.

In that regard I find modern cars incredibly unrewarding. They thrill to flatter. The power can be immense, just plant that pedal, the electronics wont let the overpowered car get out of shape and you're along for a thrilling roller coaster ride. There's ample grip to bend the mind through a corner and abs esp etc will bail you out if you have to loose speed even on a corner. True if you're at the limit, then the systems cant save you from physics, but short of being a pro on track, youre not even at 7/10ths in say a modern maclaren on road, besides maybe 10/10th bursts of acceleration.

A BB is just something completely different. On road you can keep pace with almost any modern(besides drag racing down a highway) but you have to be able to go to 9/10th or 10/10ths without nannies to make pace for that 7./10th modern, and doing so in any car is incredibly rewarding, it also requires 10/10th from you, something moderns dont even ask for.
I guess the difference is analogous to playing an instrument or a stereo.

I was somewhat lucky in that got the BBi when i was 28, and with a young mans vigor and lack of caution really explored the car/limits for years. I was living in Africa and the car lived at my folks in the burbs of Ny, so i drove it when visiting for a few weeks per year. When i got it, the car was 10 years old and suspension brakes etc drove as it should, so I suppose I still have the baseline yardstick in my mind/memory for how boxers should go.

Which brings me to where we are now. It is a fact that the drawback of a boxer is tires, and on a BBI the flat power after 6k rpm. Its a car that from the factory just misses greatness(actually its the rare car that does not miss greatness when behind the wheel). Your koning was revelatory for two reasons, firstly the feel of the motor up top+sound. It may have well been slower on paper than the modded BBI, but the way the motor felt and reved, racing though the end of each gear, its love of revs, that all added a whole other dimension to the experience. The other revelation was the front end feel. Boxers are considered heavy at the wheel at lower speeds, the Koning was nto that way at all. It was also running 215 fronts and therein lays the clue.

On my car now Im running 275 17 rears and 225 fronts, works great, nice steering feel, and fully planted rear.

Ive thought many years about the "perfect" boxer spec. Or put another way, the 70 s was a difficult period for ferrari and the boxer was not as fully baked as maybe a 275 4 cam series car which ferrari had been honing for decades from the 250 series.

I personally think the boxer suspension and brakes are just fine if fresh and fully part of the charter of the car. We either need to go to 17 in wheels for BBis and 225 fronts, or as trbo joe has wide 15 inch lemans wheels for the rear and those narrower fronts. 15 inch historic treaded race rubber has more than enough grip for a boxer.

Then the question comes down tot he motor for a BBi. On one hand we want to keep the stock appearance, as a car would then just be a wheel swap back to stock to be a concors winner. So your cams and pistons, 400hp is the way to go, and also a logical/economic way to go if the motor is being rebuilt anyway. Diff carrier for reassurance.
However EFI opens up a whole universe of possibilities. If you're planning on keeping the car then budget aside it seems like there is much to gain from efi and maybe even ITBs. Paul as you taught me, stock Boxer piston rings are not good and real Cr is probably not even 9:1. Pistons and cams seem a no brainer.

Does going to ITBs open up more possibilities in terms of cams not possible with the stock intake, while also allowing for low down drivability? If there is more to gain up top and drivability can be retained with ITbs that's then a next stop(even though we loose the stock look). What one would egt with IOTbs besides imporved power esp up top woudl be eye candy and intake sound, which is missing in a BBI. Id differentiate further with those Koning intake ducts from the roof.

its all reversible of course, so nothing historic is being ruined as with a resto mod, and importantly its all in keeping with the essential boxer.Id also do a Sanden ac.

As to value, its not a resto mod ruining a historic car.It is the type of thing pantera and etype owners do all the time. Panteras are interesting as theyre one of the few upgraded cars that are worth more if done properly. Another is the porche 959 which Canepa sympathetically upgrades with different turbos, sequencing and modern computer to drive better and make more power. So value seems to attach to maintaining the essence of the car and the provenance of the "sympathetic upgrades', they key is provenance and tastefully done without changing the essence or essential look of the machine.

Id call it a ferrari BB512IM the M standing for modificata. If you think about it, all we'd be doing is upgrading the car as Ferrari itself did when they built the first 512 BBLM's, Ie wheels tires, pistons cams and injection which is what the first BBLMs were(besides being stripped and shocks springs), so there is historic precent to build the road going BBLM. The road going version being called a BBM. We might even speculate that in a world where emissions and crash protection not to mention USA sales hadent forced ferrari into he testarossa, thats exactly where ferrai would have taken the boxer. Its analogous to what they did when the 308 became the 288.

In nay event, if youre rebuilding a BBI motor pistons and cams seems a no brainer, and wheels tires as a must imo fo9r any BBI thats being driven.

Curious to see how far the efi takes it with the stock intake, as that too is so easily reversable.

IMO a BBIM tastefully done is work a lot more than a BBI, although maybe not worth more than the cost to get there, at least until a few cars are done and there is provenance. Id say one drive in such a car would be convincing.

 

Ive seen corrected dyno figures posted that show a 340 hp at the crank. Its easy to a ssume a car with wear and less than optimal/new cis is makign less.
My but dyno tells me my car goes flat and trails off after 6200 rpm. I imagine how nice it would be too keep building power to the low 7s. The stock cams are going to negate this I think, although you may well have more power with the efi at 7k than you now do at 6k.

Awesome project.

 

2 brackets are working fine on my car and I have additional turbo boost what you not have. so no need to use 3.
problem what I had: the rails have been looking poor aluminum when I prepaired them for the injectors, put all together and tested and all was ok, so nothing leaking. then I gave the rails to a company for black anodizing and when I put all together again nearly all injectors have been leaking where they are connected to the rail. even when I used a thicker O-ring. have been really down. so I made new ones but before I made the boring for the injectors I gave them out for blue anodizing and then later made the holes and it was all ok then. don`t ask me why it was leaking before, even it was more of a sweat than a drop

 

Link to the other thread.
https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/512bb-lm-tootling-around-spa-francorchamps.687185/#post-149472509

No imagine introducing some of this element to a road going car.
The same tone sound, and fury, but at a tasteful volume. On the volume front notice how moderns are either way too quiet or then have baffles that open and sound like an over loud clown car. What made classics great(listen to a 330lm or euro daytona, was the way volume rose to a crescendo with revs, but at regular speeds was merely tuneful without being obnoxious.

The Lm above give an idea of the true BB sound. Yes road going car would not have the gear whine but the essentials coudl be tjhere. Notice how the Lm just chews through and crushes the gears. Sift crescendo shift. egging the driver on. Yes a road going car does not have short gear ratios, but cams EFI ITVs should do it, with the right exhaust, yet still be tractable and just drivable in traffic with the revs held low. newmans own konign had stock gears but felt liek short ratios such was the character of the engine.

Sanden Ac, so you have workinc ac.

Suspension rebuild to take out decades of slop, with maybe stiffer bushings for the sway bars so tis a little tighter in transition, but still complaint.
Allt he brakes need is appropriate pads.

id go witht he 15 in wheels that turbo joe has, for that period lemans look and you can go really nice and narrow in the front for ultimate feel.
Speaking of the front end, no need to lug around the tools jack or spare so store those and loose that weight. Id ditch the heavy led battery and put in a Shorai motorcycle lipo battery, it has plenty of CCA and eights 5 lbs.

Wire the stock stereo for your Iphone music and its all set.

There is nothing done there thats not removable and returnable to stock. meanwhile you have a Bb thats really awesome in a way one just glimpses at now.

yes it would take a little development, primarily for the right exhaust sound, and alignment for feel. The pistons and cams are already worked out by Newman, itbs have been done once i know of, and were reading an efi motec thread.

the heavy lifting opening the motor for the pistons, and suspension redo, which sooner or later one is going to need to do on a driven boxer.

 

for what? the best music is in the rear from 12 cylinders

 

The sound we already know so well.
How many revs do you think he competitizione is pulling before shifting.

 

in the video from the red bull ring at 6:01 I would say not even 6000

 

I used those military connectors

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I think black rails to minimize the look.

 

Agree with newman. They stick like a sore thumb. Maybe black anodizing? That’s more durable and appropriate for a manifold than paint I think. Also all your polishing won’t be wasted.

Best, Peter

 

those rails are aluminum. what about sandblasting them with very fine granulat?

 

before you try this you may test at an other piece how it will look and post a photo here please. never did this and just before got this idea

 

Black anodized could work or you could match the intake plenums, all round tube similar look. Or match the flat aluminum look of the cis fuel metering units
Its say matching the cis fuel metering units, the crinkle look of the cam covers or the intake plenum is all along the lines of what Ferrari would have done.

Awesome project

 

what you understand under standard body injector? standard is a CIS, so totally different

how would this work? the distance from the end of the injector to the seat of the injector is equal. have a look please at the photo.

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