95 Berlinetta weight reduction and modifications. | Page 11 | FerrariChat

95 Berlinetta weight reduction and modifications.

Discussion in '348/355' started by INTMD8, Mar 25, 2017.

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  1. Zamboniman308

    Zamboniman308 Formula Junior

    Feb 2, 2020
    504
    Chicago IL
    I can't emphasize this enough. All the orings on my 97 were hard brittle rubbish. Really appreciate you sharing the ones you tracked down and saving me a ton of time on that front. My car is all torn apart as well but baby steps getting back together and running it's best. Based on your listed location I think we are very close by each other. Once these are both back on the road hope to see you out there. Thanks aging for sharing this info.
     
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  2. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jun 10, 2007
    6,751
    Lake Villa IL
    After doing what I could with the ports I sent the heads to Stephan at Lesco (because of comments/praise I read from Rifledriver)

    We agreed it may be worth the effort to go slightly oversize on the valves to allow room on the seat for a multi angle valve job.

    So he installed CHE guides and had Ferrea make new valves.

    Intake original- 26.5mm Ferrea- 27.25mm

    Exhaust original- 28.5mm Ferrea- 29.15mm

    I liked the result of the exhaust valve job.





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  3. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 10, 2007
    6,751
    Lake Villa IL
  4. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jun 10, 2007
    6,751
    Lake Villa IL
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  5. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jun 10, 2007
    6,751
    Lake Villa IL
    Next, I didn't like the loose fit of the valve springs (inner and outer) to the retainer.

    It's ideal they fit perfectly with a slight interference rather than having room to slop around.

    Thankfully Ed at CHE precision was willing to take this on and he made new retainers out of titanium (Ti-17) that are not only lighter but locate the valve springs perfectly.

     
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  6. GTO Joe

    GTO Joe Formula 3
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    Feb 15, 2013
    1,002
    Charlotte, NC
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    Joseph Troutwine
    What a shame to hide those retainers under a valve cover. Simply beautiful! :)
     
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  7. Targatime

    Targatime Formula 3

    Feb 22, 2014
    1,449
    Los Angeles
    Man, this is some beautiful, serious work. Congrats.
     
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  8. ShineKen

    ShineKen F1 World Champ
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    Aug 3, 2007
    19,888
    Southern California
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    Nostradamus
    Are you considering Toda uprated valve springs?
     
  9. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 10, 2007
    6,751
    Lake Villa IL
    No I don't think I will need them with the stock camshafts.
     
  10. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jun 10, 2007
    6,751
    Lake Villa IL
    I may have mentioned it before but what I'm doing applies to probably no one. As far as the engine is concerned, I'm focusing on high rpm power. Basically, don't do anything I'm doing.
    I'm just sharing for those that may be interested.

    So going back a bit I re-assembled the heads and re-installed on the engine. Used Murray Glegg head gaskets.

    Also had some underdrive pulleys made to reduce accessory rpm. (alternator/water pump/power steering) A/C unchanged.

    Before doing so, I CC'd the chambers and compression ratio -now- after milling the heads and slightly larger custom valves is 11.5-1.

    All things but mainly vehicle weight, driving style, compression ratio,multi angle valve job and other head work influenced my decision on cam timing.

    Further- you can run less overlap with higher compression as less -dead- space exists (so less space for residual exhaust gas that needs to be cleared by -overlap-)

    -slightly- larger valves but much more importantly multi-angle valve job will increase low lift flow during overlap. (so again less overlap needed)

    And of course with higher static compression and no other changes, cylinder pressure may get out of hand at low/mid rpm resulting in detonation. (if someone were to drive it like a tow truck and not like me)--- loading it heavily/high throttle input at low/mid rpm instead of downshifting.

    That being said, I retarded the intake cams 2 degrees and advanced the exhaust cams 2 degrees. Reduces overlap and slightly reduces cylinder pressure at lower/mid rpm.

    -Trades low/mid rpm torque for high rpm power.

    -Delays start of compression cycle (compression cycle starting at IVC) to reduce low/mid rpm dynamic compression.

    So original cam timing-

    Intake valve open- 16 deg btdc
    Intake valve close- 42 deg abdc (center valve 10deg retarded)
    Exhaust valve open- 56 deg bbdc
    Exhaust valve close- 16 deg atdc

    Now-

    Intake valve open- 14 deg btdc
    Intake valve close- 44 deg abdc (of course center valve still 10deg retarded)
    Exhaust valve open- 58 bbdc
    Exhaust valve close-14 deg atdc

    With increased static compression ratio and altered cam timing, cranking compression is 210-220psi. This doesn't mean much other than the delayed intake valve closing may compensate for increase static compression at lower rpm as cranking compression is similar to original. (or to say in another way, if I put the cams back to stock, cranking compression would likely be higher/higher than what you would expect from a stock engine).

    Next that I installed was rebuilt clutch and lightweight flywheel from hill engineering. Along with that, a new quill shaft from hill engineering.

    Replaced a bunch of common items of course and now I've fixtured the headers and started to build replacements. As I mentioned earlier, focus on high rpm power so I'm starting with custom flanges that are angled upward to match the cylinder head exhaust port angle and using larger radius tubing.

    Also- drastically reducing the primary length. Original 22.5" Now 16.25"

    Increasing secondary length. Original 5" now 7".

    And using merge collectors everywhere.

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  11. F_driver

    F_driver Formula Junior

    Mar 27, 2015
    428
    Belgium
    Great build, do you know what the weight difference is between the hill engineering flywheel and the stock one?
     
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  12. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

    Sep 22, 2008
    6,892
    Richmond
    Full Name:
    Pete
    I'm guessing the higher compression will offset any low end losses anyway. Should give you more high end punch - didn't challenge cars have a different cam timing spec similar to what you've done? Reducing overlap (or increasing lobe separation) can do interesting things depending on car. I'm definitely curious what the difference will be, especially in terms of how long it'll keep making power...9500rpm? 10k?
     
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  13. JoeCab

    JoeCab Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    May 27, 2014
    426
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    Joe C
    I think you might be wrong about that. Pending results, of course, there might be quite a few that want to emulate what you have done.

    The top end is why most of us love these cars, so I can personally see trading some torque for additional power higher in the rpm range. Maybe everyone doesn't agree, but surely some will.
     
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  14. radback

    radback Formula Junior
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    Dec 14, 2020
    754
    France
    It is always interesting to read your posts INTMD8.
    Thanks for sharing.
     
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  15. Targatime

    Targatime Formula 3

    Feb 22, 2014
    1,449
    Los Angeles
    Great stuff. Curious if you measured compression during disassembly. In the Porsche world, the actual compression ratio is always lower, sometimes quite a bit lower, than claimed compression. 993's claimed 11.3:1, actually are 10.6, etc. Curious if you found the same.
     
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  16. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 10, 2007
    6,751
    Lake Villa IL
    Thanks guys.

    My notes on the clutch weight is-

    original clutch/flywheel- 25.2lbs

    lightweight flywheel, rebuilt clutch with sprung hub- 17.4lbs

    Fwiw, Hill engineering does not recommend using this flywheel on the street. I thought it may not be bad on my car due to the weight reduction.

    Pete, I don't think it will have a drastic difference, just a slight amount. I would like to shift it at 9100. (and any rpm over stock is not going to help timing belt life)

    As for compression, no I didn't lower the piston in the cylinder/measure/CC so to your point, it's half a point higher than whatever it started at. I would be surprised if actual compression was lower than advertised on these giving the cranking compression numbers and power output.
     
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  17. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

    Sep 22, 2008
    6,892
    Richmond
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Looking at dyno graphs - I think the stock car should actually be shifted around 9000rpm as power doesn't drop much at the 8750rpm limit. Agree on timing belt life, but how many of these cars get near the mechanical limits of the timing belts vs. age limits? Especially now that they're classics? If they were rated at 30k miles with an 8750rpm limit, at 9500 even if that drops to 10k miles it's more than most of these will see in 5 years...Either way, can't wait to see what it does. This car will be a great examination of what can be done by just doing minor improvements across the entire car, which I'm betting will add up to a lot in terms of performance.
     
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  18. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 10, 2007
    6,751
    Lake Villa IL
    Pete, thanks and I agree that for best performance even with the stock engine 9000 would be better than the current rev limit. Also agreed on the timing belts. I may revise my thoughts after running it on the dyno if it seems to be happy with more rpm. (no signs of valvetrain instability)
     
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  19. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    Feb 18, 2008
    6,016
    Indio Ca/ Alberta
    Full Name:
    Grant
    Great post as usual
     
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  20. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 10, 2007
    6,751
    Lake Villa IL
    Thanks everyone.

    I finished that header and looked at it for a few days. Thought to myself, I think I can make it with bigger radius tubing. Also thought, if I put in enough time in the design I can make it more aesthetically pleasing.

    The larger radius tubing means a lot in terms of flow. If you look at many headers available they have a very tight radius bends for some of the tubes and larger radius for others. Most still better than the originals. (Some are worse)

    So, I decided now was the time so I cut the header into pieces, ordered new material and started over.....
     
  21. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 10, 2007
    6,751
    Lake Villa IL
    The larger radius tubing added more difficulty than I expected.

    Original headers are 2" centerline radius so a 180 degree bend is 5.625 outside diameter

    The first header I built was 2.5" centerline radius so 6.625 outside diameter.

    These are 3" centerline radius so 7.625 outside diameter.

    Primary length now 17" and secondary 8". They are all exactly the same length.

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  22. ShineKen

    ShineKen F1 World Champ
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    Aug 3, 2007
    19,888
    Southern California
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    Nostradamus
    That looks wild! SICK!
     
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  23. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 10, 2007
    6,751
    Lake Villa IL

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