The connector limits depth of the injector. The connector sticks out, so the injector can only go so far down into the well. I originally thought that I wanted the injector o-ring to sit in a carrier like the CIS injectors do; which lends itself to using the short-body EV14 injector. I at least proved that this can work, but I felt I could do better with an alternate design. In this design, I use a standard sized EV14 injector body, with an extended nozzle, and a wider o-ring that seals against the intake manifold itself (not a carrier, which then has its own o-ring for sealing against the manifold). I did a quick drawing to show what I mean. The read lines / boxes represent the intake manifold well. There are two levels. The larger o-ring allows the injector to seal against the lower level without the need of a carrier (that's the idea, anyway). The short-bodied injector never gets low enough into the well to take advantage of this. Image Unavailable, Please Login
so the outside diameter from the carrier is equal to the outside diameter from the EV14 injector body? then you are lucky to use those long injectors
Maybe this picture helps better explain. They're not perfectly aligned, but you get the idea. The red line represents the intake manifold. A few points: The EV14 injector cannot go below that line as the connector arm extends beyond the diameter of the intake manifold well. The intake manifold well has two levels. The CIS injector has an o-ring in the top level, and the carrier itself seals against the manifold on the top level (the larger black o-ring). The lower level doesn't actually seal. I believe it's more there to ensure the angle of the injector. For my original design, I 3D printed a carrier for the short body injector that follows the same convention (injector seals to the carrier, the carrier seals to the manifold). The top of the CIS injector carrier is below the manifold, held in by clip. My 3D printed carrier actually sits above the manifold to support the injector connector arm (probably not necessary). I didn't incorporate the clip, as it is the job of the fuel rail to keep the injector from backing out. Once I removed the original CIS injector carriers, I was able to see / measure the actual diameter of the well, which is what made me think an improved design would be to simply install a larger diameter o-ring on a standard body EV14 injector. The lower position of the o-ring and the fuel rail would jointly be responsible for ensuring the proper angle (that's the idea anyway). I hope that all makes sense. It's still just a theory until I actually run it. And even then, I'll probably need to get on a dyno before really knowing if this works. As a side note and total coincidence, I believe the standard body / extended nozzle injector I chose is the same injector used on the 550 Maranello (Bosch 0280158124). At 382cc/min, they're good for 500 HP at 50% duty cycle. Ps. I paid $75 for a new / clean CIS injector carrier to reverse engineer. That's practically saffron cost / gram! Image Unavailable, Please Login
Status update. Mostly just chipping away at it. Wired the remaining sensors, including the addition of an air temp sensor. I also added the wires for a throttle position sensor; which would be necessary for ITBs (if I go that route). Tested each injector and coil. The ECU allows me to isolate a single cylinder, simulate RPM, and then actuate a coil or injector. Heat shrinked the bank 2 wiring harness (combination of DR25 and SCL). Pretty much no going back after that. Waiting on more 1" DR25 before moving on to bank 1. I decided to keep bank 1 and bank 2 as separate "trunks" to keep things a bit more nimble. Painted the rails with black VHT. Not sure how I feel about it. Also, even after waiting 48 hours to cure (and using a heat gun), the finish isn't as durable as I hoped. I think if I am serious about this look, probably better to powder coat. Curious everyone's thoughts now that you can see it. Imagine the rest of the engine has been cleaned / repainted as well... Test fit the injectors with the coils. I experimented with a few different arrangements. Attached is a picture of what I think this is probably the best configuration of the bunch. I would have liked to have all the coils pointing towards the block, but the runner braces get in the way, and it's against my #1 rule to modify them (remove material). I need to finalize the layout before I can trim the leads to their final length and install the connectors. The blue painters tape will be replaced with heat shrink labels. The rest of the colored bits will all be covered in heat shrink. Whipped up an air filter for the plenums using UNI foam filters. It's meant as a short-term solution, but I rather like the minimalist look, so we'll see. I am shooting for starting the engine with both banks on EFI injection this weekend. If that goes well, then I should be able to swap out the mechanical ignition for the EFI ignition rather quickly (sensors are already wired). Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I feel like I'm in the minority but I liked the polished fuel rail better than black.. maybe they would look good anodized, more of a matte finish?
See if you can come up with sleeve material to run the injector and coil wires in together so it replicates the stock plug wires.
I think combining would help give it a cleaner look. I was already considering expandable sleeving elsewhere. Not exactly the same look as the thicker ignition wires, but I imagine it'd be a little cleaner than having two wires per cylinder. Or I could just go for it, and wrap in larger diameter DR25, but then you're really committed to this layout as that's essentially permanent. Thoughts? My first thought after installing the black rails was that I preferred the raw / polished aluminum, but I think it just grew on me after seeing it that way for a few weeks. Might just need to see if the black grows on me as well. I could always go back as stripping the VHT isn't too difficult. I could try the Oxy Clean trick too. One thing that was kind of cool about the raw aluminum, was that it looked like the oil pipe and fuel rail were connected (almost like the fuel rail was wrapping around the intake runners).
I would remove the terminals (I know it sucks) then slide the wires into a smooth black sheathing like the engine harness then put the ends on the wires again.
Status update going into the weekend. Stripped the fuel rails back to raw aluminum. A can of Brakleen, a pressure washer, some #0000 steel wool, and I'm back. Added DR25 to the bank 1 harness. I don't think I really like how loud the yellow "Raychem DR25" branding is, so I ordered some braided sleeve to cover it up. We'll see how that looks. Removed the CIS thermo switch, and replaced with a coolant temp sensor using an M14x1.5 to 1/8" NPT adapter. Pic attached. Removed the CIS AAV. I'll let the ECU handle idle and cold start / cold running. Frees up space under the plenums and looks cleaner, IMO. I am going to do some more experimenting with the braided sleeve for the individual cylinder wires. I agree combining the two into one will visually look better, but I'm not sure I want to commit as a permanent thing (using heat shrink). Especially if I go ITB in the future, it's unlikely that the injector and coil will be this close together and it'd be great if I can use the existing harness for my initial ITB tests (although, I am assuming I will eventually create an all new harness due to my learnings on this one, and necessity due to the ITB layout that I haven't considered). My hope is to get the wiring completed over the weekend, pressure test the fuel system on both banks, and start her up. If that goes well, I'll start the process of swapping out the ignition (wiring and sensors are mostly in place already). Side note, it's really bothering me to see this gray over-spray all over the engine. Admittedly, I didn't have the knowledge to be able to notice it when I bought the car, but now it's all I can see. Looking forward to getting the engine all cleaned / painted / dressed. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Raychem DR25 is the main heat shrink tubing I am using. Very common (de facto standard) in motorsport. Ends are sealed in Raychem SCL (glue lined). Individual Throttle Bodies. Each cylinder would get its own throttle body, mounted on custom (low profile) manifolds. I'd then mount velocity stacks (aka trumpets) similar to that of the Lucas injected BBLM cars / BB carb cars. It's a balance of a few different things. For one, size. Also, a preference for certain connectors (eg, DTM). Also, which sensors play nice with the Motec M150.
Agreed on the rails pic, maybe plenum color will be better at some point. Curious to see the airfilter setup pls
Nothing special. Basically just threw this together to keep debris from getting in during R&D. It's an UNI 2.75" foam filter (UNI UP-4275), on a 2.75" OD aluminum pipe, using a 2.75" ID silicone coupler to mount to the throttle body. Trick was finding a filter with an overall outer diameter small enough to not interfere with anything under the plenum (less of an issue now that the AAV is removed). Even as a short-term solution, I'd like to bump the length out so it aligns with the plenum edge. Haven't given a ton of thought into the long-term solution. I think whatever the setup ends up being, I lean towards something minimal. I'd rather not crowd the engine bay with large air boxes. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Thank you, I understand the stopgap expediency as you still have bigger fish to fry. My understanding is the the air intakes on BB is such that it takes in the high pressure fresh air coming off the roof landing on the back of the car. Or thats the theory anyway, although the stock air filter intake sitting on top f the hot exhausts probably less than ideal until well up to speed
Yeah, I've read that too. Part of me finds this a bit dubious – especially since the cars that saw track time felt the need to scavenge air from elsewhere. That said, this is one of the reasons I thought it'd be nice to add the air intake temp sensor, since I can monitor / log air temp and experiment with different intake setups. Also, the Motec is "volumetric efficiency" based, so I can see if the engine is getting starved for air if the VE never get's to 100%. Although, there are other variables to consider (eg, restricted intake from the plenums). I purchased some flexible intake tubing to experiment with pulling air from different places. That's part of the reason I punted on this, because I want to play with different setups, and I didn't want this to block me from getting EFI up and running. Maybe I should route the air from the NACA ducts into the intake so they do what everyone already thinks they do!? Kidding...
thank you for explaining. of course I know heat shrink tubing but never have heard about this DR25. in germany we describe the shrink tubings only with 2 numbers. for example: 24 - 8 ( means the diameter before shrinking is 24 mm and after max. shrinking it is 8 mm, so shrinking 3:1 ) 40 - 20 ( means before 40 mm and after 20 mm, shrinking is 2:1 )
for this I was looking about 15 years ago in germany and europe but not found all in one place. I think I ordered from more than 8 suppliers
That article pretty much says it all. A lot of good info in there. Even the time and cost estimates have been similar to mine. I'm well into 100+ hours in planning / execution. The wiring, terminals, connectors, specialty tools, heat shrink, etc. are easily similar to the cost of the ECU (probably more). I'm not sure the article addressed this, but there does seem to be a fuzzy line drawn between "club" and "professional" levels when it comes to harnesses. I went with the "club" level; which is a bit more relaxed. As far as where to purchase, I mostly purchased from prowireusa.com, but I also purchased from milspecwiring.com; which I believe is a kind of direct-to-consumer option for Motec USA. If you purchase a Motec product from a dealer, it'll likely ship from milspecwiring. So they sell a lot of general use supplies, but also a lot of Motec specific items (eg, sensors). When this is all wrapped up, I'll share a cost breakdown. Spoiler, it ain't cheap. For most people, the "just buy another car" will be the better route to go, but that wasn't the route I personally wanted to go.
This is a great project, the difference between something that works and optimized to work best. yes motec offers lots of data, I guess got to ne careful not to get wrapped round the axle there. As to the two historic intake options, the stock and the BBLM roof ducts, i doubt they did the type of serious analytics now available. More along the lines of what seemed to make best sense a little trial and testing then going for it. Im pretty sure that the roof ducts not only look great but provide an advantage, although there probably some warm radiator air mixed in. The roof ducts also allow for the type of plenums that would optimize ITbs if I understand correctly, In any event one then i suppose also needs to look at other restrictions from exhaust exit, (the art of the possible), and then the big gains from pistons and cams, all while keeping an eyes on aesthetics with some sort of historic sensitivity. We do know that the later BBLMs were putting out in the region of 450-480 hp. While a street driven car would no have the same cams exhaust or fuel, it does seem that with modern injection, pistons and cams this is achievable now. The 512BB moded by carobu was supposed to have 460 hp so it should be eminently achievable in a efi car with he right setup, while still being very drivable..
The 365 competizione took the intake air from the side of the clam shell buttress then the silhouette took it from just aft of the side quarter glass, an evolution of the 365 version. On the track I would think the roof scoops affected aerodynamics not to mention warm radiator air. On my BB the roof scoops were awesome but not possible with an injected car running plenums.
My current plan for air is to mount the sensor in the old CIS cold-start injector location (currently blocked off). I can then experiment with different options for where to best pull the air from that balances performance with aesthetics. I'm curious to see what works best. Yeah, this is a difficult needle to thread. Not sure I am going to nail it, but I'm trying to find that right balance. I literally stare at the engine bay trying to think through different configurations that emphasize different aspects (aesthetics, performance, serviceability, historic sensitivity, etc.). At some point, I think you just have to go for it, so you don't fall into a "paralysis by analysis" trap. I would be willing trade a few HP for the cool points, especially if you can see the velocity stacks like on your old BB. I agree, it'd be pretty silly with the stock plenums, but I could see it working well for ITBs. If I go the ITB route, I certainly don't want to hide them behind some bulky air box like on the 355.
Part of the issue you may encounter with velocity stacks and that really cool setup Newmans car had is the clam itself. The BBI had the two black covers in a slightly different location to the BB, so the ITBs may not line up properly, or maybe its just the angle of a short manifold to line the ITBs up. Those scoops off the roof are just epic, and being able to see the intake trumpets just adds to it, not to mention the enhanced audio.,
Yeah, the ITBs are a bit of a can of worms; which is part of the reason I bumped it to phase 2. A few options come to mind though: 1. Angle the throttle bodies (and the trumpets) inward to align with the intake covers on the BBi clam. Seems weird to have angled trumpets on a flat engine though. 2. Use shorter trumpets and nix the exhibition covers. Don't love this idea. Longer trumpets help with torque. 3. Use curved trumpets like the P4, but point them inward (see pics). Benefit to this is that it would have a nod to the existing intake runners which have a similar look. Not sure exhibition intake covers would make sense though. 4. Purchase a BB clamshell. Need confirmation here, but I believe they are interchangeable? If so, then vertical ITB trumpets should align with where the carbs are on a BB. Maybe someone has a spare hanging on wall somewhere? 5. Have a new shell made (carbon fiber?). That'd save weight (not that the aluminum version is really all that heavy), and I could position intake covers anywhere I want. Figure mucho dinero. Anyway, problems to solve for another day. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
