EAG, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

I doubt they converted a DCT to a system where you have a manual clutch and electronic shifter. That would make no sense and it would not last long.

Ive done enough development work with DSG gearbox software to call BS on this.

 

the copium is strong.

 

Apparently can't edit posts here to add meat to my previous post.

It is a relatively trivial task to program a "manual" shifter to a DSG gearbox (my background is in VAG so I call them all DSGs), masking the canbus requests for a selected gear isnt hard. But the clutch control and pre-selecting gears is integral to the TCU, and presents challenges I can almost guarantee someone like Art could not solve.

Porsche runs effectively the same gearbox as a PDK and 7 speed manual, and the shifter mechanism and conversion to single clutch is a work of art on the manual. A hybrid solution is not really possible, at least if you want it to actually work outside the Youtube environment.

 

If that were the case, Tesla wouldn’t be able to continuously promise “Full Level 4 self driving” and Roadsters, neither of which have production timelines in sight. If Tesla could have pursued for fraud, they would have.

 

The FSD comes with lots of legal disclaimers.
They are at least a decade away from it being even remotely usable.

 

lets not stray too far from the topic of EAG and its failures but Tesla has been sued for misrepresenting autopilot and a judge has given the go ahead: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/nov/22/tesla-autopilot-defective-lawsuit-musk

Tesla has a lot of weight to throw around the legal system to slow things down and drag them out. The law and its enforcement isn't perfect but that doesn't give anyone a right to do fraud.

 

I’m old. One thing my grandfather told me was , “We all make mistakes. But for crying out loud, why do you have to put your ****ups on a billboard?”

My grandfather was pre-Internet.


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat

 

That lawsuit is focused on defects in the current production software. I was referencing the numerous promises of capabilities that have never made it to fruition, many of which are captured here: https://elonmusk.today/

 

Yup, this is a similar way that EAG came out of the "gate"...with a manual 430 they conveniently forgot to mention was a conversion....although they were trying to sell it, unlike the N*** video...but you know what they say about birds of a feather.

 

So much wisdom there. Salute

 

I can always count on Dale to provide grandfatherly wisdom on Fchat .

 

That would be great great grandfather. Lol

 

I agree that it probably isn’t a mechanical/hydraulic clutch pedal - there would have to be 2 of them to control both clutches! It’s most likely just a neutral switch for the transmission that commands neutral over the CANBUS when depressed.

It would be possible to use a position sensor to convert clutch pedal position to DCT clutch position, but that type of control would require an aftermarket transmission control unit.

 

That wouldn't work as the gearbox still would use the gear selection matrix inside the TCU to choose which gears to preselect, and selecting neutral comes with a lot of complications.
I mean, I guess it would work for Youtube, but it would never be a practical solution in application purpose.

Clutch pedal position to DCT clutch position would not really work either. You still need the logic to preselect gears. It would work as a gimmick but never in real life.

 

I disagree; all of this is possible with an appropriately-programmed aftermarket transmission control unit with clutch pedal position and gear selection inputs (this is likely not possible with the stock controller.) Koenigsegg does clutch-by-wire across 7 clutches; there’s no reason an aftermarket controller couldn’t be programmed to do clutch-by-wire for whichever clutch corresponds to the current manually selected gear.

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/koenigsegg-light-speed-transmission-manual-automatic-how-it-works-explained/

But I’m not suggesting Art had the skill to do all of this properly for the driving demo. He likely had someone else develop some custom software to do some of it, but I’m guessing it was pretty far from being production-ready.

 

Apple, meet orange here.

I am talking about converting an existing Getrag DCL gearbox to manual control. Christian's project is custom-built for that application.

No, you can't convert the 458 gearbox to operate this way, without a fully customized mechatronics unit etc. This is a multi-million dollar project that would take years and years to develop at a Tier 1-level facility. Someone like Art does not have the capability to produce anything like this. We are not even in the same ballpark here.

 

I just finished rebuilding the mechatronics unit on my DL501 (and readapting the clutch engagement points.) All the hardware needed to fully control both clutches is there. The clutch position/engagement point tables are there in the controller. What’s not there is the software to control the mechatronics based on additional external inputs, and the controller i/o to accept those inputs. Developing that is not trivial, but not impossible. If lookup tables can control clutch slip and engagement, so can external i/o. How close the existing mechatronics hardware could come to replicating the feel of a conventional manual…well, that definitely could be a significant shortcoming that custom software could not overcome.

Unless someone (hopefully with a valid driver’s license) gets ahold of the clutch-by-wire/shift-by-wire car in the video, I guess we’ll never know what it really was. Given that no one has ever talked about driving it, I’m guessing it was pretty bad.

 

If you read the comments on that video, it’s apparently an electronic clutch pedal as well. When questioned about why he didn’t divulge those details in the video, NGSC Dan responds “time to move on.”

Obviously he’s trying to distance himself from the fallout and minimize his part in it. A better answer would have been “Yes, I should have given more details when I had the chance, especially after it was misrepresented by Art in multiple articles.”

 

I was one of the first ones to develop any aftermarket solutions for the DL501 15 years ago, so I'm somewhat familiar with the controller. As you say, the hardware is there but the controller itself is pretty dang complicated, so you can't easily "cheat" it with outside i/o controllers.

The mechatronics on these require very accurate PID control of clutch engagement ratios with feedback loops from selected gears, torque values, torque reduction requests from ECM etc. I haven't even started talking about gear shift strategies in the ECM, changes required to the project config values in the ECM. This is way beyond the scope of a guy in Texas who machines a few parts on a CNC mill.

I'm just going to write this off as "never happened". And if someone wants to talk shop about this, I'm happy to do so in DM.

 

******** the slime is real

idk why vendors in the car sphere seem so allergic to owning their screwups but yet another example

Image Unavailable, Please Login

The DuPont Registry said EAG built "a transmission with upgraded synchros" to handle the additional power, had to find a suitable clutch and suggests the firm went through a lot of prototypes, but doesn't ID the gearbox source. All Bartosik would tell CB is that there's a limited supply and he'll "only be able to build around 10 or 11 of them."

from: https://www.autoblog.com/2019/06/05/ferrari-458-six-speed-manual-european-auto-group/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAACzImLMBWiziQBNA3CaQDec1k6uhzfb10w2MNUl1GD3TGw3u2_BAcBp1q-WMTX-qQx5T9MKlqgMI-iOBXlaUH7ZsOKnATsimoIP5Qfq6hVaUqlnZr0TcXuBNZJovFD8cScWQ8xPwhyrZpqfsAyQdcyVDSpTDWbt2impjKsmWsXpq

I mean how the hell could you post a video of that and allow the lie?

that article was posted June 5th, 2019 -- NGSC's livestream was January 12, 2023.......3.5 years later and he allows the guy to come on his platform and lie to the community? Supports the lie...and "mic drops"...

 

lol check out the photo in the Hagerty article of the "manual 458" photo: "Courtesy Arthur Bartosik"

pretty clearly shows a full size brake pedal and no clutch pedal -- electronic or not

don't worry, this article is also dated before NGSC's livestream...May 13th, 2022

https://www.hagerty.com/media/news/the-manual-transmission-ferrari-458-is-finally-here/
Image Unavailable, Please Login

awesome render of the shifter

from that same Hagerty article, "The same sons-of-you-know-whats told me they’re prototyping a 458 six-speed." a six speed control for a seven speed gearbox...lol

 

I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying it wasn't done by these people, the way they said it was done.

 

To try and convert a Ferrari sounds like a trashy terrible idea to begin. Please let the original manuals be manuals and those with f1 transmissions appreciate and channel their inner Schumacher naturally. Both cars have great sensations unique to their transmission. Let’s not try to artificially change the production numbers of the cars, it will only upset owners of original manual Ferraris and create a wave of “fake” “modified” Ferraris and seems wrong

 

Image Unavailable, Please Login
It was all a hoax,
it was a micro switch wired into the paddle, there was no clutch pedal.
Just driven like a teenager in an automatic pretending to depress a clutch.
You “shifted in his center console gate” it up shifted or downshifted, similarly to the way the PDK center stick is used.

Pathetic indeed.

Now….modificata actually did make a one off manual 458Specalie.


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat

 

the EAG conversions on my 430 and scud have been the best mods i have ever done having owned 90 cars in 20 years. no question about it.