EAG, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

I just watched the segment from the NGSC Thursday night live stream about Art Bartosik's "converted" DCT 458. Although I won't say Dan and Josh are grunting morons, the clarity they bring to the nature of the 458 clip that they included in their January 2023 livestream is no different than what we would have got from a couple of grunting morons. Here's their exchange:

Dan: The electronic thing was a prototype product that they actually wanted to produce. A real electronic shifter. Like you put it in first gear it says that it goes into first. You put it in fifth gear it goes into fifth. And I do wanna note it did have an actual clutch pedal. So like is that a manual transmission? I don’t know. Like you are telling the computer to tell it which gear to go in electronically but you’re not. . . .

Josh: In my opinion, you are manually changing the gears it is a manual transmission, whether physical linkage or electronic linkage is a [inaudible]. . . .

Dan: Right, it’s semantics. I don’t know.

Josh: Who knows?

Dan: Is that, is that a shift cables and you’re physically shifting? No. But whatever.

<snip>

Dan: It’s stupid. That whole thing is stupid.

******

What I -- and I believe the rest of us on Ferrarichat -- want to know is how did this thing work? A simple clutch consists of an engine-driven plate, a friction plate, and a pressure plate, the latter being the operable component: the part that allows for the disengagement, slippage, and reengagement of the three-piece assembly. The driver uses the clutch pedal to control the pressure plate.

Here's a picture of a 458 dual clutch assembly that I found online:

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What the tiny drawing at lower left shows is that the DCT has -- what? -- two clutches, and that they're concentric. When the "external" clutch is engaged, engine torque spins the red-colored drum and that torque is output to the corresponding gear cluster via the red tube. While this is happening, the "internal" clutch -- the yellow-colored part -- must be disengaged. When the TCU tells the DCT to change gears, the external clutch must disengage and the red drum stops spinning. At the same time the internal clutch must cycle through disengagement into a short moment of slippage into full engagement, and engine torque is output to the other gear cluster via the yellow tube.

I admit I lack the super high IQs of NGSC Dan and Josh, and their sycophantic Thursday night live audience, but I do not understand how a single clutch pedal could do all these things with a simple push and release from the driver's left foot. Dan and Josh choose not to explain it. And that's all that we "drama llamas" at Ferrarichat would like to know: how does this thing work? If you're being accused of sleazy business practices in connection with Art's "converted" 458, it behooves you to dispel the ignorance of your consuming audience. Rather than even try to do this, Dan and Josh wave it off. They describe we dissidents as "flat earthers," so invested in the notion that the earth is flat that no amount of evidence could possibly shake our beliefs, so why bother? OK, so Dan and Josh don't owe us an explanation; they have the right to prefer circle jerks with their online sycophants. Fine. But this is the approach of sleazes with something to hide, not of ethical businessmen dedicated to transparency and respectful of their consuming audience. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck. . . .

The other thing -- something that is probably an outright lie on Dan's part -- is that the driver can use Art's electronic stick shift device to "put it in first gear it says that it goes into first. You put it in fifth gear it goes into fifth." My admittedly incomplete understanding of the DCT is that it uses essentially two gear boxes, one for the even gears and one for the odds. Two input shafts, two gear clusters, two output shafts, two sets of sliders, synchros, and dogs. It is also my understanding that the next gear to receive engine torque is pre-selected, and that the DCT's operation is always sequential. You can only "skip" four gears (go from 1st to 5th) by tapping the flappy paddles so fast that each intermediate gear is only engaged for an extremely brief interval. Also, the clutches must disengage, slip, and reengage as this process cycles through each gear. If my understanding is correct, then even if Art's electronic shifter can override this complex sequence of events and go directly from 1st to 5th, it must still be the case that 5th has been preselected, before the clutch pack can disengage, slip, and reengage. This is not how it works in any other three-pedal vehicle. Rather, you disengage the clutch, then shift, then slip and reengage.

Again, I lack the super genius brains that allow Dan and Josh to understand how all this could be characterized as a "manual transmission," such that any dissent is a pedantic and illegitimate reliance on "semantics." This being the case, while it's not fair to think of Dan and Josh as sleazes overall, my sub-genius self gives them a Sleaze-o-meter score greater than zero.

 

It is theoretically possible to control both clutches with an "e-clutch" pedal, so long as the appropriate control system logic is implemented to control only the clutch corresponding to the currently selected gear.

The transmission can select any gear when when both clutches are disengaged, so as soon as the shifter is moved to the desired gate, the appropriate gear selection would happen, and the the appropriate corresponding clutch would then be linked to e-clutch pedal position via software. No pre-selection of any gear is required for even standard factory DCT operation; pre-selection of the next gear only makes gear changes faster (assuming the correct next gear is pre-selected.) But the factory DCT is perfectly capably of doing 1-3-5-7 gear changes, it will just do them more slowly like the older F1 single-clutch automated transmission.

Here's how an e-manual (e-clutch + e-shifter) would theoretically work:

1. The "e-clutch" pedal is depressed and both clutches are disengaged (one clutch should have already been engaged to begin with)
   
2. The gear lever is used to select any gear.
   1. If gears 1-3-5-7 are selected using the shifter, the e-clutch pedal controls the position/slip/lockup of clutch 1 (while clutch 2 stays disengaged.)
   2. If gears 2-4-6-R are selected using the shifter, the e-clutch pedal controls the position/slip/lockup of clutch 2 (while clutch 1 stays disengaged.)
3. Possible additional functionality: if the e-clutch pedal is released before the gear selection is complete, the control system could intervene and delay clutch engagement until the appropriate gear change occurs inside the transmission. (The diver would have to be shifting/clutching extremely quickly to encounter this situation, but it's possible.)
   
4. Possible additional functionality: If the gear shift lever is moved from one gear to a different gear without depressing the e-clutch pedal, the transmission could theoretically automatically perform the shift without needing to engage the e-clutch. It's basically how the paddle shifters perform from the factory, but it would skip directly to any gear without sequential selection.
   
   1. If a 1-2 shift is performed, it would be a very fast shift because 2 different clutches are being used
   2. If a 1-3 shift is performed, it would be a somewhat slower shift because only 1 clutch is being used.

All of this would require significant software changes and most likely an different aftermarket Transmission Control Unit would be required. It's very doubtful that the EAG e-manual 458 approached this level of sophistication. It's more likely that that the clutch pedal was just a glorified neutral switch that disengaged both clutches and the gear lever was just a glorified paddle shifter. But this is pure speculation and no one here knows for sure.

I think everyone is being too hard on Dan just because he's doing his best to relay details about something which he probably had very limited knowledge. I wouldn't expect Dan to be able to explain all of what is listed above given that he was never allowed to drive the car and is not an engineer. Art likely wouldn't have shared any meaningful details anyway. I wish it was Art (or the ECU programming guy) in the video explaining the "e-manual conversion" instead of those ridiculous other videos Art posted.

 

The feel of properly slipping/engaging the clutch is at least half the fun of a (fully mechanical) manual transmission. I agree that if the e-clutch is just a neutral switch, then might as well just do away with it.

It would require substantial software programming and likely multiple performance tables for an e-clutch to come close to replicating the feel of a manual clutch.

 

To be fair, on Thursday night Dan walked back a lot of his EAG is the devil from the video earlier In the week

 

There are some DCTs which are indeed sequential (e.g. one shift drum for the odd gears and one for the even gears), but gear selection in the 458's Getrag is solenoid controlled hydraulic; so basically the computer runs the show and anything that the computer deems acceptable can be selected at any point in time.


The idea of converting this gearbox to something that is or mimics a manual transmission is in the area of the Venn diagram where "prohibitively complicated", "absolutely pointless" and "criminally insane" overlap.

 

I would be amazed if it worked in any capacity. There is zero chance of it driving like an actual manual transmission.

 

Falsely accusing anyone of criminal conduct in writing is libel. You better be right about Art or some plaintiff's lawyer will own you

 

It's just car talk. Some like to talk trash, and some like to drive. How about you?

 

"Embezzlement, tax fraud and stealing" is straight up defamation and not just car trash talk.

 

Stop being silly. lol

 

Only if the opposing side can prove that he knew the statement was false when it was made. Based on all the stories, he probably doesn’t have much to worry about.

 

One will have to prove that he did not do anything of those actions said by others, and others will have to prove what they have said is true. When the truth is somewhere in the middle, it will only come down to who has deeper pocket.

 

why did you quote my post but not say anything?

 

Defamation, only if not true... to make such claims, one would certainly better have some supporting evidence though.

 

Considering that the person that made those comments was recently the CEO of EAG, he's probably in a good position to know one way or the other.

 

The guy that made the comment is the recent CEO of EAG. Maybe you should temper your reaction with those facts in hand. He's the only person on this thread that has any first hand knowledge of the inner workings of EAG. Art's got bigger "fish to fry" than this at the moment. First order of business for Art is to get back to earning a living.

 

Funny how Art is having an overstock sale with no stock or tools to make stock…

more robbing Peter to pay Paul?
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High value post

 

It’s probably the new owners trying to recover some capital.

 

Informative posts are always welcomed.

 

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The overstock sale is obviously legacy and not current. But why not have 50 more posts on it.