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F430 no start condition, help on wiring schematics

Discussion in '360/430' started by 308GTB1978, Mar 11, 2024.

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  1. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Dominick
    #126 flash32, Mar 17, 2024
    If you notice that is why I asked about clutch pressure switch ..it is listed on your list and yesterday it was zero during our testing but that could have been ok if clutch was closed ..need to test that

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  2. 308GTB1978

    308GTB1978 Karting

    Dec 21, 2013
    114
    France
    #127 308GTB1978, Mar 17, 2024
    Owner is asked, don't know if he can perform the test alone, will see.

    The break pedal sensor of this car is a 4 wires :

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    The owner tested it : OK.
     
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  3. eric355

    eric355 Formula 3
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    Eric DECOUX
    #128 eric355, Mar 17, 2024
    Weird ! Just did the test on a 2007 (CFC231) and was able to select 1, N and R with the paddles and switch, with brake depressed, engine off and whatever door condition.

    Looks normal to me.
     
  4. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Ian Riddell
    #129 Qavion, Mar 17, 2024
    Actually @mike32 sent me a Brake System diagram a few weeks ago for a standard F430 (and I didn't notice that it does show a direct connection).

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    I'll add this wire to my colour diagram (with a note mentioning it is valid for, at least, a regular F430). Maybe only the Scud is "N/A"?

    F1 diagram:

    https://www.dropbox.com/t/48GhzLnHyv5GsCft

    Brake System diagram:

    https://www.dropbox.com/t/XqmvkmW1eMktUUIl
     
  5. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    #130 Qavion, Mar 17, 2024
    Do you mean via the scan tool? Does he know that the switch contacts are diagonally opposite to each other? i.e. you should check diagonal pairs of wires with an ohmmeter. One pair is normally open, the other pair is normally closed.... i.e. until you actually push (or un-push) the switch.
     
  6. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    #131 flash32, Mar 17, 2024
    We tested it yesterday as part of my diag on the tool ..what the TCU is seeing

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
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  7. 308GTB1978

    308GTB1978 Karting

    Dec 21, 2013
    114
    France
    #132 308GTB1978, Mar 17, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2024
    Crazy !
    Your test is conform with what is in the owner manual.

    Please note that at the very begining, the dashboard only shows N and nothing else after car (not engine) startup.
    On the other F430 after car startup you have N/auto but you can unselect auto by pressing the button engine off. This is not the case on the "broken" car.

    The owner tested the sensor on table and we test it with the OBD tool, sorry if I was not clear.

    @Domonik : sorry, I miss your call.
    The owner tried your test : he owns a Thinkdiag on his smartphone but the software is not multitask/multiwindow so if he leaves the clutch bleed procedure to see the datastream, the bleeding just stops !
     
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  8. 308GTB1978

    308GTB1978 Karting

    Dec 21, 2013
    114
    France
    #133 308GTB1978, Mar 17, 2024
    Breaks are useless when you own a scuderia :D
     
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  9. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Dominick
    #134 flash32, Mar 17, 2024
    Whenever you can you should try to test it since it is in the main steam of sensors necessary to start

    We were able to bleed and see data yesterday..but not sure which tool we used yesterday..

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  10. 308GTB1978

    308GTB1978 Karting

    Dec 21, 2013
    114
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    #135 308GTB1978, Mar 17, 2024
    Yesterday we had 3 tools, we did not use the tool of the owner, which I didn't know ....
     
  11. 308GTB1978

    308GTB1978 Karting

    Dec 21, 2013
    114
    France
    #136 308GTB1978, Mar 18, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2024
    The owner try today but he can not start a bleeding procedure (or any procedure) and look at the datastream.
    As soons as he quit the procedure, the procedure is stopped, no way to get the data in real time...

    I was wondering if the problem can be a clutch sensor position default, it would explain the behaviour of the TCU :

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    but ... there is no error code at all in the TCU and learning procedure can be done :confused:

    I also remember that one tool is able to achieve the learning procedure but an another not at all (it stays like frozen near the end with no error message) whereas the same tool worked on other F430 !

    Strange.
     
  12. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
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    Isle of man- uk
    #137 mike32, Mar 18, 2024
    Odd this has occurred just after a clutch change !!
     
  13. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Dominick
    #138 flash32, Mar 18, 2024
     
  14. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    #139 flash32, Mar 18, 2024
    Maybe having the sensor backwards can cause an issue after driving a little while ? Just guessing here
    My real life experience is that it doesn't cause your symptoms
    My plan if it was a friends/clients/ my car - test the pressure sensor by jumping the relay as you have before , borrow a TCU , and if those steps don't work tear apart transmission and reverse clutch position sensor magnet
     
  15. 308GTB1978

    308GTB1978 Karting

    Dec 21, 2013
    114
    France
    #140 308GTB1978, Mar 18, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2024
    The car performed about 1000 km in one year before the problem that occurs as soon as the hose was disconnected and some tests with a topdon done.

    Jump relay for engine start I can, not the owner.
    Jump relay for something else ?

    It is a friend/friend car, I do it in my free time for 0 $ :)

    May we see the magnet with the video endoscope ?
     
  16. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    #141 flash32, Mar 18, 2024
    Let me modify plan - in order .. First jump relay ( as you have in past to start car) , monitor clutch pressure ...if that looks good . then try running the DEIS procedure from Maserati screens on Launch ( my theory here is that someone ran it and it failed leaving TCU in a "bricked state", and re-running it will correct it). I am taking a chance here since the next step is to borrow a TCU and replace anyway no reason not to take a chance.

    Reboot launch and place dongle in car - do not do anything else but the following to allow cache in tablet to be clean
    Run DESI procedure and be patient - it can take a long time up to 10-15 mins
    After it finishes even if fails ( confirm it) - shut car off and wait for 2 mins at least

    If that doesn't work .. continue with original plan of borrowing TCU and then going in to fix clutch sensor

    The DEIS procedure may fail ( and had failed if run) maybe due to magnet being backwards so the only two ways out is to replace/reprogram "bricked TCU" and don't run DEIS or fix sensor and rerun DEIS correctly
     
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  17. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,951
    Isle of man- uk
    #142 mike32, Mar 18, 2024
    The clutch sensor you refer too, is this the one that picks up the position of the clutch release bearing ?
     
  18. 308GTB1978

    308GTB1978 Karting

    Dec 21, 2013
    114
    France
    #143 308GTB1978, Mar 18, 2024
    Understood, will do, easy job :)


    DEIS for you is "autocalibrate procedure"/"self learning", which engage every gear several times ?

    We did it, on one tool (X431) it runs well and finish OK, on an another tool (Autel) it stays in the middle of nowhere with no error. We waited and re-performed with X431. This was done (and OK) AFTER the initial problem occurs.

    So I run the procedure two times one before and one after a tool reboot ?

    Understood, if it is the case, I'll try a deeper inspection with the endoscope.
     
  19. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    #144 flash32, Mar 18, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2024
     
  20. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    #145 flash32, Mar 18, 2024
    The Deis procedure is different than the procedure we ran together which is the gear box relearn.. only works for 3.01 and above and has known to cause issues with TCU when it doesn't complete completely

    I am suggesting...my theory here , is that someone ran that somehow and it failed either because of the person not waiting the time to finish or a problem with the clutch system e.g. position sensor ...etc. what I am suggesting that to run the procedure and see what it does and if it fails and it fixes the problem ...on the launch the procedure is under Maserati 2009 GT ..... So this only after you test pressure sensor

    Please follow my procedure of how to run Deis above

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
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  21. 308GTB1978

    308GTB1978 Karting

    Dec 21, 2013
    114
    France
    #146 308GTB1978, Mar 18, 2024
    Ok, never tried a maserati page for a ferrari :)
    Do you assume it is labeled DEIS in the tool ?
     
  22. 308GTB1978

    308GTB1978 Karting

    Dec 21, 2013
    114
    France
    #147 308GTB1978, Mar 18, 2024
    To fix the sensor, we need to disassemble the gearbox ?
     
  23. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,951
    Isle of man- uk
    #148 mike32, Mar 18, 2024
    Plate 0024 item 47. Pt no 206075. Does that clutch sensor have anything to with the issue, if that is giving wrong clutch position??
     
  24. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Dominick
    #149 flash32, Mar 18, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2024
    Yes here is the pic .. little piece with screw in it Image Unavailable, Please Login

    This is the proper way to face on a f430 .. not a 360 ..in that case of a 360 it was be reversed

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  25. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Dominick
    #150 flash32, Mar 18, 2024
    I had someone reverse the magnet and the car worked fine ..this car also drove for 1000 miles with it wrong ..

    Again my theory is the magnet was installed backwards (for sure ) , someone ran the DEIS in a Leo or SD and it crapped out putting the TCU in a bad state

    Why I say that is that the clutch position from new was zero when I was looking at diag reports ..I can't imagine someone who is doing the clutch would out zero .. normally it left alone incorrectly or a correct number is put in ...I am.thinking the TCU parameters which are normally set by the Deis procedure are wacked

    I know for sure that a failed Deis procedure gives this exact symptom and the only way out is fix/replace TCU with running Deis again or fix what the Deis procedure is complaining about and run to successful completion

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
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