U.S. Federalized or Euro original

Im 3rd owner on mine. First was in Ariz have all the paperwork, then after 10 years he sold it, next was a doctor in Chicago i think he had it less than a year and traded it on a 348 cabrio. owned it since 93.

not wanting to hijack a "concors" debate thread. Im heading int he direction of pistons cams efi and ITB stacks. Imo as a drivers car its what they really need esp a BBI.. IMo done right it will enhance value just as some 911 redos or sympathetically updated etypes enhance value.

Imo the BBI was seriously compromised out the box due to the CIS and resultant cams/intake. Scrapping poor 70s tech which was from a BMW anyway and making the car how it should be without altering the inherent feel of the machine seems to me something that can break boxers exp BBIs out of their price desire doldrums. The same thing has been going on with e-types for years.

id call it a 512 BBM the m being for modificata, essentially a comfy road going BB with bblm performance.

Were ok with electronic igbnition, i say pistons and cams(which keeps everything looking 100% stock), if not efi and stacks. 15 in wheels wide at the back narrow fronts. After driving Newman's Koning I think were all missing the real explosive performance these cars can have. Stock a BBI like a new honda gold wing, smooth and strong down low, then just when you expect it to come on cam and fly, it goes flat. The narrow fronts with 15 in wheels give the car a steering fell a BBI lacks.Theres gold in them thar hills.

 

With the well known fragility of the transmissions I'd never modify the engine in one. In my opinion the car is at its best stock.

 

Back in the early 90's the bodyshop that painted my Boxer customized the side markers to duplicate the Testarossa's. It sits flush with the body. I actually like it better than the euro/original look.
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Very nice way to do it but most federalizations were a very cost conscious operation.
Most were imported for the sole purpose of resale. Typically on those the conversions were done on the cheap and there were plenty companies out there happy to do it. A smaller number were brought in by an owner who wanted it done for his personal use. Those were more rare, and more expensive. Dick was one of those.

 

Yes, originally mine had slap on screw ins. I lived and dealt with it from day one till I repainted the car.

 

Exhaust federalization seems random. I saw a euro TR in the US with what was described as “a never seen before weird and sloppy exhaust setup”. The tech remediated during an engine out service. Others he said had a cleaner setup. All different.


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is the rear diff carrier not the fragile part, that can be upgraded. the idea is to get something that performs like a Koning, maybe a bit more so, those cars used same tranny.

Imo stock the BBI cars are a bit of a damp squib certainly past 5800k where the action should ramp up.

 

Here are a few examples. The diff carrier was not too much of an issue the the BBs. Everything else was. I spent a lot of time in the 80s fixing broken BB gear boxes. I have a TR. I drive it like the trans is made from ice cubes. There's a reason factory BB trans parts dried up a long time ago. People like me were buying them to fix cars. I know a few owners of BBLMs. None of those cars are running OE gears or shafts. I had 10 sets of gears made up for them a few years ago. And even then they have to be very careful with them. It just wasn't a good design. The 2 broken 1st gears in the pictures are very common. If you measure from the major diameter of the ID to the minor diameter of the OD there is no material there. No wonder they just split in pieces.
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This is why I qualify my comments by saying I know very little compared to you guys. What I do know is that I learned early on not to **** with an original design. My first car was an Austin Healy Sprite. I would carry the engine into my folks basement with the help of my brother every winter. I installed oversize pistons, oversize valves, headers, on the cosmetic side I painted the block gold with white headers. Took the car out and within weeks I blew up the trans. Re-built trans. Friday night my brother and I were going out for a booze cruise. I launch from a stoplight and revs go thru the roof and we coast to a stop. I twisted off the rear axle in the rear end. It literally broke the axle in two. You have to do everything to every component or you will break down.

 

Capt. Rich: After all these posts on this thread, do you have a full or even a better understanding to your original post how your BBi should be prepared (not to confuse with pre-judging) for competition in a current FCA Experience concours? Currently 97 points out of 100 is the required minimum for a Platino award.

 

Hey Dave, Correct if I am wrong but don't you own a black BBi and you made exact reproduction foam for the air intake covers on the rear clam shell. If you are who I think you are, we have met at the last couple of Nationals at RA. I have been on this quest to have an original BBi since I purchased her. I started out with good bones and have most federalizations removed. Actually there were not that many. I still have to do the door bars, headlights and I think that is about it. I have an Ansa Sport exhaust that I am not going to swap out for the original, oh well. To answer your question I would say yes. Along with talking to guys like you ,buddy Don Bartz, and the list would go on and on. Its all fun if you don't take it too seriously.

 

Also, the last couple of times I have had my BB judged the judges asked whether I wanted the car judged as federalized or original. In 30 years of doing concours I never had this question posed directly until lately. There was always discussion on particulars but never the direct question. The powers that be must have made this decision.

 

Hi Rich,
Your last question: Yes the Black BBi in 2009 at RA was me, and yes I did make the dimpled foam inserts for the rear clamshell covers as the originals were N/A from the factory since 1989.. I did point them out to Dick Fritz during judging. His reply was "very close but not exact" and I agree.. I do have a chunk of the original material in an air tight container for future reference if I want to go back to the project. I did see Paul Newman was seeking to duplicate them, but never did see his results. My thoughts are it would take a large investment for tooling obtain the exact results with a questionable ROI. In other words, do it for the labor of love.

My reply In regards to the above: I'm not suprised. There was a time during FCA judging where a few of the federalized mandates were considered logical and your car was not dinged for it. Example: Door Beams. Would I have them removed for concours points? Absolutley not! They aren't air bags, but they are better than nothing if you got t-boned.

 

Thats true and I was one of them. As you know we allow the grey market cars to be shown as original configuration or federalized. Thats still kind of problematic because there were so many different paths taken for federalization. In practice if its shown in federalized form which is a small minority of the time very little emphasis is placed on the modifications. If its shown in original configuration and proper deduction methodology is followed The door beams and labeling that may still be present in the door jams should not amount to over 1/2 a point unless it was a particularly poor/sloppy job of modification. We have a term called "Tween cars". Its in between being federalized and original. The smog is all gone but the bumpers and lights are still modified is a good and common example. Those get hit pretty hard with deductions. Generally a gray market car stripped of 90% of its modifications is not going to suffer badly for the remaining minor details.

 

Also Rich prior to us asking that question there were a few cases when a question arose that a "Tween car" was judged and it was then asked "Was my score better being judged as an original car or a federalized car?". Then we had to stand around looking it over, calculating it both ways to keep an entrant happy. Took a lot of time. Now its clearly decided going in.

It was a part of an overall program to improve and make judging more consistent. Better train judges and have better product knowledge. More has been done about that in the last couple of years than in the prior 15 or so.

 

Does your car still have an intact original exhaust? If not I think it was Tubi but might have been Ansa made a replica of the original. I think it was at Watkins Glen they had it and asked Dick and I when we were on the board together to have a look prior to going into production. We both thought it looked really good. I suspect it is the one shown on the MCP website.

 

Is the above question for me? If so, yes. The original euro system is a (4) piece design, I believe the supplier was Ansa. The left/right resonators have stamped Ferrari P/N's. The system is rough by todays standards being SS but with a texured, non polished finish. I re-install this system if I do a concours. Otherwise I currently have a Borla system installed purchased from Mike E. a few years back that I modified with shorty glass packs.

 

No, actually I was asking Rich. I have seen his but the exhaust was at the time living in a tent of insulation left from the conversion so I was unable to see what he had. Don't think it was OE or the resonators would have been obvious. So many of the original systems disappeared or were chopped up during conversion they were very hard to find. I remember Dick and I being pleased that they were being reproduced and that they looked like a quality piece.

 

Hey Brian, I have a Ansa Sport exhaust. I took 1/8th inch aluminum plate and custom cut them to fit quite snugly where the part #'s 110310 and 110309-resonators would hang. I like the look, it is very neat and you don't have just a hole there.

 

A lot of people made plates cover that. It does look better that way.
And I always liked the sound of the Ansa sport system. We installed quite a few.
I think it took 50 lbs off the back of the car.

 

You fit in a Sprite?

 

I was 18 years old, and I hate to say,about 65 lbs lighter. I forgot to mention the Sprite had Goodyear Polyglas Gt tires and homemade fender flares, comp rear springs, which did just the opposite of my intent, it raised the rear end. I painted the car 3 times, always with Cobra stripes. My brother and I had a shade tree business called "Southwest Competition Motors". We had an account with European Auto Parts on the southside of Chicago. Fat Jimmie was an old parts guy who could come up with most parts thru memory. Way before computers. He came out one day when I was sitting in the Sprite and said "Aye Kid do you get nose bleeds in that car". I will never forget that comment. Days gone and almost forgotten!

 

Pleasant surprise. I was going off the federalization invoice from G&K Automotive Conversion. It showed headlight replacement with a charge of $425.00. I checked them out this morning and the headlights are original Cibie euro lights. The owner must have gone back after federalization to the original lights. Money saved.

 

Your comment and those pictures are more than enough for me to treat my car with respect. That motor has plenty of torque to be great fun and can propel it to a top speed I doubt I'll come near. That said, I did upgrade the diff carrier, not because I plan on abusing her, but it's a fairly simple fix and cheap insurance given the me$$ it can make if it scatters.

 

Hey all BB owners. I have owned a BBi for 17 years, an 83 for 12 years and my current 84 for 5 years. I have been doing FCA concours for over 30 years. I have never been asked to remove my gas cap till this year's Nationals at Elkhart Lake. The judging was pretty much over and one of the judges came back and asked me to remove the cap. At first I thought he was checking if I had the factory keyed cap. He did not say what he was looking for. He looked inside the pipe. I am pretty sure he was checking to see if I had the restrictor for the unleaded gas nozzle. I thought I had removed all federalization mods. You learn something new everyday. Guess what I am going to remove when I get home.