F355 Market

If my assumptions are correct and the car is sitting on standard springs front and rear, that would mean the car has standard dampers + standard springs (rear) and challenge dampers + standard springs (front). Close to a road going car, except with stiffer bushings.

This would explain why the car actually looks road compliant on normal streets in the driving vid.

 

Helper springs at the top.


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Challenge rear springs + helper. Pretty sure now what’s on the BaT car arent challenge springs.


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There are more and more clues the original owner ordered an “arranged” 355 challenge thru a Ferrari dealer in Germany. The car is delivered to the dealership in “arranged” state with a challenge kit on the side ready for the dealer to install. He decides not to participate in the challenge series hence no immediate need to install the kit. Remember, the dealer still had to charge for 60 hours of labor to install the rest.

The original owner might not have even fully understood how the car arrived and what needed to be done to complete the challenge conversion. He simply drives the car as is while touting it’s a “factory delivered challenge car. This is how the car was delivered from the factory!” .

He titles his car, sells off his challenge kit and just like that his car is now a “factory-built road-going challenge car” delivered with standard 355 bits specifically for road comfort.

I can see how this can be massively puzzling and convincing if one does not fully understand how the challenge program worked. Perhaps even for the original owner.

 

You should definitely post that to the auction comments as well (IMHO)

 

The cool part is we can probably view this car as a timecapsule for how an “arranged” challenge car might have arrived at the dealer. Insights into what tasks were assigned at the factory and what tasked was left to the dealership.

 

I have another theory which would give the original owner the benefit of doubt.

This car was delivered to Germany March 1997. The car was most likely ordered late 96 or early 97. There were no “special edition” 355’s at time. The original owner could have very well made an effort to order something “special” for the road and perhaps some occasional track use, but not “race” use as the challenge series is more grueling and less likely to preserve condition.


I am speculating because the car came with carbon seats and carpets. If one had fully intended for it to be a race car in the challenge series, there really is no need to spend the extra $$$ on carbon seats. I also presume the carpets weren’t installed normally from the factory.

Perhaps the Ferrari dealership themselves sold the owner on the idea they could order him a challenge car, street title it, while having certain street bits on the car because at this stage, the dealerships would know how “arranged” challenge cars arrived. They could have easily put in a request at the factory to install carpets for this particular order. Of course this theory hinges on when the car was first titled.

Knowing the owner had no intention to “race” the car in the series, they might have made him an offer for his “challenge crate” as they could use the spares. OR they might not have told him about the crate at all keeping it for themselves. “Oh you want upgraded brakes? We’ll install F40 brakes instead, so you can keep the handbrake. You’ll need the handbrake for road legalization.”

So this all leaves the possibility the owner didn’t know. He simply went with what he believed to be true without fully understanding what’s going on behind the scenes. The car continues to exchange hands with the same story of origin.

 

Do we know if the carbon seats are original to the car? There was a comment in there that said the registry showed otherwise.

 

Ferrari should know how the car was delivered.

 

Of course it’s possible the seats are not original to the car. Best to check production date of the seats (tag underneath seats) to see if it comes anywhere close to the car’s.

For whatever reason, when seats are not original to the car… purchased from Ferrari after, the seat buckles do not match the seat. They sit too high. Carbon seats have their own seat buckle. If the seats were pulled off another car, then yes, the belts would likely match.


The registry being quoted is run by @Matthias Urban. It is based off visual spots, so if the car was spotted with red cloth seats (could be any seat really) then that is what is reported to the registry, not necessarily how the car arrived.

 

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I think the money is $160’s if perfect with seats and Challenge providence. Love the look. I have no time or interest in tracking, even if I had time.


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If we're talking perfect as delivered challenge car with minimal track time and no accidents with 100% of the parts then it's probably worth into the 200s. If a perfect road car can be, why not a perfect Challenge car?

All speculative here as there have been no public sales of truly exceptional challenge cars in the last 3yrs (to my knowledge). Maybe @ShineKen can comment on what Jas paid for his or any other nice Challenge cars that have sold since he seems to know all of the 355 dealings.

 

I have no clue what Jas paid for his. I’m aware of asking prices, but not privy to any private sales. I haven’t seen any public transactions over $200k.

I would say the difficulty of finding the car you’ve just described is very high. A few have been posted here recently. I don’t see why $100k+ over an equivalent Berlinetta isn’t justifiable. Perhaps even more. Really depends on what people are after or if something catches their eye. They’ll know they want it when they see it.


It’s usually the pretty cars inside out that catches people’s attention. They might not know much about them, but it looks good enough to peak interest. Completeness helps. Street ability helps. Condition definitely helps.

They should be in 993RS territory. They just need to be as clean and complete.

 

@pj911 ’s car seems to fit the script. Mostly complete. Hardly raced. Well preserved. I would be shocked if he were willing to let his car go for less than $250k.

https://youtube.com/shorts/54q7Ud4z-ZE?feature=shared








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I would think the better comp would be a 993 Supercup. Closer level of race-ness and also designed for a single model series.

A 993RS is 100% street-able (except maybe the Clubsport's with no interior, harnesses, full cage, etc.) and borderline daily drivable in touring trim (AC, power windows, airbags, radio). A CS is definitely a comp, but the Supercup was designed to be raced by customers whereas a CS was intended to be driven to and from the track.

To quote the 993RS expert Bill Verburg:

"Pure race wide body were GT2 and RSR
Cup is a slightly detuned RSR
RS/CS is a street version further detuned and somewhat softened
RS was the street touring version"

A Challenge car (that was actually converted unlike the BaT car) is by no means a good street car. Drivable on the the street? Sure. Would most people want to spend 3+ hours hauling butt on backroads on a 70°F day with harnesses and no AC? Probably not. Both the Supercup and Challenge are real race cars and should be collectible because they are the hardest core race versions that can still legally be driven on the street.

 

Quite right! It's no fun driving them on the street. I used to drive mine to Pocono, Lime Rock Park and NJMP. The novelty soon wore off...


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These days I have my car trailered to the track and back.

 

Cars like that are hard to find. They've led a rough life especially the European Challenge cars which were often driven by pro drivers in the European Challenge Series...

 

In my limited opinion, I agree that a lightly tracked, fully sorted, streetable Challenge car with all the parts and providence should easily be north of $200k and I agree to $250 plus for the best ones. A special club for sure.


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You might be right, Rob. I try not to think about my car's value. It's the only way I can enjoy tracking my car. If it gets damaged, it can be fixed. My car is no virgin when it comes to damage it sustained when it raced.

What I like about the F355 in its Challenge form is its handling on the track. It lets you know when it's about to exceed its limits and gives you time to correct. Pretty good for a car without traction control.

 

I think I know a guy who's car was flipped on its roof at one point

 

Yes. That car had two weeks to get ready for its next race. Bondo was up to an inch in thickness on the roof. The driver's side view mirror still sags slightly.

But it's got provenance.

 

I forget

100% agree.

Furthermore, I may be in the minority that enjoys driving my track setup 355Ch in the street. Traffic…no. Backroads…yes. Like an espresso jolt but stress-relieving even at sane speeds/limits.

But then, I’ve had other street-registered racers further on the race setup spectrum than street end.

 

Apparently, all you need is a set of standard springs and you’re good to go.


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I'll play the Devil's Advocate as an outsider. I can certainly appreciate the rarity of a super low mileage real Challenge (with all correct parts) in excellent condition, and agree that car would be an outlier on the "value" scale. However, the nature of the cars is to be tracked and the expectation would be that parts would wear or become technologically obsolete and replaced. Depending on the track/race rules an original Challenge would be hamstrung without "upgrades."
The point being that a buyer looking for a concours Challenge is not the same guy as the one that actually wants to track (or drive on the street) and I would think that pool of buyers would drive the pricing.
I understand I'm talking on a Ferrari forum, but even an upside down Challenge could be modified to the tastes of the owner (potentially killing resale) for a stellar street car (outside CA). See Modificata. I'm certain other threads are better suited for that discussion.

At the end of the day, the car in question would still be a really nice street car even if it lacks some of the special parts that make a Challenge a racer.