BAT Challenge car Close but no cigar. I'm not one to speculate. $240K today is, well not what it was a year ago. I think it was well placed. I spent close to that on B0oooos and H8888666^^^rs so for in the first 2 quarters this year LOL
Didn't the car sit at $120k in EU? Even with import/duty fees, shipping, mechanicals, and detailing the math doesn't add up to $200k.
$120k is most likely off. I know this car because @Senshi458 was interested in purchasing it when it was in Norway, but $120k is most likely what he was willing to pay. The car was for sale between $140-160k USD depending on exchange rates at the time it sat. It sat for awhile. It’s always difficult for us to pinpoint a number in USD because of fluctuating exchange rates. I also believe buyers in Norway have high taxes for car purchases. Let’s say he did buy the car for $150k usd. With taxes… what? $175k? Add importing costs and a few things done at at 911r… roughly $200k is my ball park estimate.
USA import duty is 2.5% plus any processing/landing fees If we're guessing they paid $150k, they would owe ~$4k in duty, shipping cost and landing/processing I would guesstimate to be $10k, mechanicals + detailing and prep for $15k then there total would be ~$170k I far as I understand it, they would be able to get a VAT refund since they're not an EU incorporated entity.
White looks good on it, no argument there. White on white? That white interior, even today, just doesn't look good. White interiors in general are pretty rare, if for no other reason than keeping it clean is difficult - and it doesn't look good in the 355 (imo). Yellow also looks good on it, but yellow on red? Not so much. Hence white on white and yellow on red are rare, but for good reason (again, imo). Just because it's rare doesn't mean it's automatically valuable. It has to be rare and in high demand, something being rare in and of itself doesn't automatically mean it's higher demand. White on black? Sure, looks good.
The initial purchaser of the car is a collector in Norway. He won the car at Coy Auction for 170k euros in 2018. That’s roughly $205k USD at the time. Include auction vig + Norway’s VAT of 25%, the guy was in it $260k USD in 2018! He paid that price most likely because he was sold on the idea it was a “factory built street version challenge.” It’s a half-truth. He put the car on the market in 2023 for $140-160k usd. That’s a $100k loss. Lots of challenge car experts in Europe looked at it and passed for the same reasons I mentioned in the peanut gallery. The only person who bought the car is the person bringing the car to U.S to speculate. The seller knows I know. To me, it’s an attempt to sell an “unwanted” car to unsuspecting buyers in the U.S. However, I will be admit the car was unwanted only due to question marks surrounding history. I just wanted to make it all clear so buyers can judge for themselves. At least when they purchase the car, the correct info on what the car is was laid out. That wasn’t the case for the euro collector who purchased in 2018 for $260k.
I think the buyer who purchased in Norway is actually a Norway resident. I don’t think it was a U.S buyer. I could be wrong. Also, any receipts in winter 2023 would’ve been under the new buyer in Norway.
I agree 100% that rare only has meaning if it comes with strong demand. However, if there’s only 1 car like this left in the world and only 5 guys really want it and are willing to pay, I would consider that strong demand relative to supply. This example happens to be a very clean example as well. The advertised price of this car in 2023 in Japan was roughly $200-225k usd depending on exchange rates at the time. The Japanese love white. The seller received strong offers and did not budge, so I presume the German dealer purchased for $210k+ before importing costs. I don’t know their asking price, but let’s find out if it sells.
I’m the last person to order a car with a white interior. Even today. Even on a Tesla. But apparently others don’t mind and plenty of older lambos rockin’ the white interior.
It’s worth pointing out the 355 challenge cars had a good run up in the 2015-18 timeframe. Many strong prices as they began being collected versus raced I suppose. Then there was a pullback. To me the Norway auction price wasn’t out of line with then market. It also seems to me these cars are going back up. Looking at the last 355 that sold on bat (ZFFPR41A4S0104210) was pretty beat and it still sold for $164k so a nicely presented version over 200k doesn’t at al seem unreasonable to me. (I certainly wouldn’t even consider an offer under $250k for my evo and it’d probably just be “not for sale” unless the price was insane). My understanding on the recent BAT car is one of the two underbidders actually has most of the parts to correct it too so he’s more inclined to buy I suppose. It’s probably why he didn’t get involved in the bashing of the car along the way either. Lastly I don’t believe there are many “unsuspecting” buyers of these cars. Every owner I know is quite well versed and did a lot of research in advance of buying their car and that ranges from one who paid 65k for it many years ago to one who paid $285k for a perfect car last summer.
If someone has the parts, that’s a great match. I say “unsuspecting” only because the car was up for sale in Norway for a good 3-6 months in 2023. Any U.S buyer had an opportunity to buy it for significantly less than $240k. If I knew about the car (and I wasn’t even looking) hard to imagine someone looking for one specifically didn’t know about. At the very least, I’m almost certain Heinz Swoboda knew about it.
There have been numerous instances of high dollar cars that were misrepresented on BaT and sold to less knowledgeable folk because BaT attracts a much broader audience than any traditional collector car pipeline. Shineken, myself, and others, were just trying to point out that the narrative about the history of the car the seller was trying to present was a half truth at best. I agree that most people who know about 355 Challenge’s and care enough to own what know what they’re getting into.
Many many thanks potential buyers will not consider cars outside of the US for logistical reasons. If a buyer is not familiar with buying remotely, inspecting remotely, security of payment, guarantee of paperwork, bond and broker processing, vessel or air transportation, import taxes, etc they will not even look or consider cars in the EU or elsewhere. Geographic arbitrage as it were.
That, and…. To quote Gordon Gekko: “A fool and his money were lucky enough to get together in the first place.” A common BaT theme.
Keep in mind there are plenty of dealers in the U.S constantly looking for deals outside the U.S to import.
Outside of missing challenge parts, my impression is there were tons of willing buyers in Europe in the $140-160k ranged advertised (knowing parts were missing). The main issue was the cloudy history behind the full repaint, lack of reason, lack of repair receipts… at relatively low mileage in 2016 and stagnant records leading up to that point. Without seeing the car in person or having it thoroughly inspected by a bodyshop, buying confidence was low. So unless the current underbidders were 100% confident this car wasn’t in a major wreck, especially, without any repair documentation provided by 911r, I’m not sure where they would be getting research from and how they are drawing conclusions. Buyers in Europe certainly couldn’t get the info. Heck the seller couldn’t even get the info. Image Unavailable, Please Login
I posted pics earlier, but one of the concerns for those looking at the car was what seemingly looked like paint work and perhaps even bondo work in the front inner door jams. I’m not sure if there’s so supposed to be paint underneath the flat black paint, but this area is usually all black. Some were concerned the damage may have reached those areas as there is no reason to paint those areas. It could also be a nothing-burger. But the circumstances and the fact the auction winner was willing to take a $100k haircut isn’t exactly confidence inspiring. Some drove the car and commented it gave an iffy feeling. That could simply be due to the challenge shock/OE shock /spring mismatch, which apparently I’m the only one who discovered. I’m not claiming any certainty of wreckage, but I don’t have enough confidence to say it’s has a clean history. With bumpers off and perhaps driving the car, I could speak on it more. I’d love to have my peers and buddies from around the world possess the coolest 355’s. I seek pleasure from it, not compensation. It’s a hobby. They ask me for advice on some cars because they know I’m thorough, a good second eye and second opinion. They are super thorough as well. I’m a straight shooter. If I know, I say I know. If I don’t know, I say I don’t know. I’d be the first to correct myself if I spot it. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I'd like to the if the fender bolts were messed with. The only way for that area to be painted is for the entire front to be disassembled, which obviously wouldn't happen if they were just correcting rock chips.
and most are garbage...you of course know about my misadventure flying to Marseilles to buy one that burnt down while i was test driving it, and just 2 weeks ago i buy a 964 from the UK, drive from London spend a few days in Paris then drive 6 hours to Belgium to "buy" a 355 that was described to me as original paint and turns out it was nothing as described...So far almost every Euro F355 i've been involved with has turned out to be way worse than described (except for the 94' GTS w Race seats that i got in Berlin) Buying these in Europe IMO you need to go see it yourself, and you need to be knowledgable about them before buying them...even ones with a PPI unless you know the garage or someone you know knows it don't think it will "definitely" be accurate!
Not materially different than trying to buy sight unseen within the US IMO (except for the fact that a US resident would obviously have much better sense of qualified folk to do a PPI within the US)
The difference being more measures of recovery with stage agencies and courts not to mention the ability to reach out and touch” the seller. I also know a handful of more than qualified guys that’ll fly anywhere in the world to do inspections so to me the location of such a person is largely irrelevant. In the end there are resellers that take advantage of the arbitrage opportunities but the car that was $170k in EU gets here and it’s $250k so there’s still a price to pay for another hand involved.
One more thing I forgot to mention while we're on it. https://www.glenmarch.com/auction-cars/show-backup-image/39939/results "Now complete and in race setup producing 450 bhp up to 11,000 rpm..." This implies a race-built engine beyond factory specs. Yet, there is no documentation of the build or even a dyno to confirm, let alone if this is a bonus or another box of headache for the buyer. What fuel type is needed? We have no 93 in California. If the motor was not built, then the seller in 2018 lied. A built motor of that caliber would require a piggy-back ECU or a stand alone ECU to run properly. This would be easy to confirm if the car has such. Then there's the recent discovery of the possible re-upholstered seats. Less of a factor if one is looking to restore to challenge specs, but if one wants to keep and use the seats, they're more valuable not re-trimmed and with the correct Cavallino. Then you have alcantara covered bits mixed with original leather bits, which we all know is not factory.
This statement is conditional on the buyer's expectations. I purchased a Euro Berlinetta (in an auction that you were an active commenter in). Some others were skeptical of the car. It turned out to be better than I expected because my expectations were aligned with the likely reality. My car was always going to get a major and headers upon landing -- turns out, it didn't need much more.
Largely useless for the types of issues at play. It's nearly impossible to prove from a legal perspective that someone knew a car was repainted or that it had bad valve guides, for instance. Just because they should've known doesn't mean they actually did. It's on you to do your own due diligence. A law enforcement agency would only bother to get involved if there's a) zero question of foul play, b) a licensed dealer, or c) a large scale scam operation. No one is going to help you get your money back on a 355 that wasn't as nice as described unless there is serious fraud going on. Sure it's definitely riskier to buy from a private seller or even a smaller dealer overseas, but there's plenty of risk when buying in the US too.
