Well, in the Louvre there are audio guides and you can bet that Michelangelo had to give some explanations to the Pope. Also Gandini gave interviews talking about his stuff. Yours is another case of "not liking but now knowing why".
Yeah, ok, don't think so whatsoever. The "audio guides" are nothing to do with trying to convince you of anything. Michelangelo was chosen to paint the Sistine. Gandini gave no interviews to describe how he designed the Miura or Countach (at the time of the reveal, he was a designer with Bertone). Years later Gandini did lots of interviews, but, not the point, all well after he was a celebrated designer. I have many reasons for not liking the "12 cylinder", from digital interior to forced ADAS, to glass roof to it being too tall (>122cm is too tall for an exotic) being a huge and heavy car, etc...what it looks like isn't relevant in comparison.
Ugh, I don't like the sound of that either. Do you know what systems exactly? And by "forced" do you mean standard but defeatable? Or standard and not defeatable? The former would be vastly preferable to me.
Last February/March before the 12 C debuted, Pininfarina revealed at Geneva Motor Show its hydrogen powered Enigma GT concept car. The use of aeronautical references like the delta wing is very visible in both cars and is this just a coincidence? Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Thank you for this!! Excellent. "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" (Oscar Wilde). Marcel Massini
Current "designer" is millions of miles away from the creativity of Leonardo Fioravanti, Aldo Brovarone and Giorgetto Giugiaro. Marcel Massini
Certainly not coincidence-it’s evolutionary-tested in concept and executed in production. Looks like an evolutionary dead end to me [emoji43] Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
I predict that some will adore the Enigma because it is Pininfarina and therefore brilliant. And of course that the 12C is a copy because they most certainly changed their design last minute upon viewing the Enigma. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
I must be one of the few guy's on the planet that doesn't worship Pininfarina. Has Pininfarina designed SOME beautiful cars? ABSOLUTELY!! And among those are SOME of my favorites. The idea, though, that their creativity never deviates from perfection is vastly off-base. Unless I'm the most difficult to please car lover in the world, I can think of several Pininfarina designed cars that I absolutely hate and/or have never been able to warm to. Some are among those considered Ferrari's (and Pininfarina's) greatest achievements. Just like I'm not going to tell a man his wife is ugly, I'll keep my list of disliked cars to myself out of respect for those who own and love those same cars. Regardless, it's amusing to witness the group think so often displayed on Ferrarichat that often attempts to convince the sycophants that Ferrari's best days were in the past, and its only great designers were from the house of Pininfarina. That's the biggest line of Bull$#!T, ever.
And to add to that, Pininfarina is NOT one person/designer. The talent ebbs & flows over the years. Thinking it's the same talent that was there during the '60's - 2000 is ridiculous. But to be clear, I have the utmost respect for Pininfarina as a design organization. But thinking they are the only ones that know how to design a Ferrari is simplistic thinking.
Forced means 2 things (to me) (1) it must be present in the car, cannot be "optional equipment" (2) for those items (1) cannot be 'turned off' As to what will be item (1), a lot depends on if Ferrari makes first EU customer "12 cylinder" delivery BEFORE July 7 2024 (and because it is super close to "not" making that deadline, I presume all the following will be "standard equipment") https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_22_4312 General safety rules The rules below will first apply to new vehicle types from today onwards and to all new vehicles with first customer delivery occurring from 7 July 2024 forward. • For all road vehicles (i.e. cars, vans, trucks and buses): intelligent speed assistance, reversing detection with camera or sensors, attention warning in case of driver drowsiness or distraction, event data recorders as well as an emergency stop signal; • For cars and vans: Additional features such as lane keeping systems and automated braking; now, scarier stuff that absolutely will be 'standard equipment': https://www.smarteye.se/blog/the-general-safety-regulations-gsr-and-driver-monitoring-systems-dms/ Distraction and drowsiness can turn the most capable and experienced driver into a serious risk to road safety. To address this problem, the European Commission published a supplementing regulation in August 2021, mandating the use of Driver Drowsiness and Attention Warning (DDAW) systems. DDAW systems assess the driver’s alertness by analyzing other vehicle systems, such as steering and lane keeping, and warns the driver if needed. Since July 6, 2022, all new types of vehicles in the EU need to be equipped with a DDAW system. and: https://www.idtechex.com/en/research-article/regulations-drivers-for-mandating-driver-monitoring-systems/30322 Europe is among the regions with clearly defined regulations mandating the installation of vision-based Driver Monitoring Systems (DMS). Established in 2019 by the EU General Safety Regulation (GSR), all motor vehicles falling under categories M and N are required to be equipped with Driver Drowsiness and Attention Warning (DDAW) systems. This regulation applies to new types of vehicles from July 6, 2022, and to all new vehicles from July 7, 2024. Specifically, DDAW must identify driving and/or steering patterns indicative of a driver experiencing reduced alertness due to fatigue. It is designed to interact with and alert the driver through the vehicle's human-machine interface, primarily utilizing passive sensing technologies like steering patterns. As regulations become more stringent, the EU introduced additional requirements. According to the second set of documents, all new types of vehicles must incorporate an Advanced Driver Distraction Warning (ADDW) system. This requirement is effective from mid-2024 for motor vehicles falling under categories M and N for new types (Ferraris are 'M' category) and from July 7, 2026, for all new vehicles. In contrast to DDAW, which primarily monitors steering patterns, the ADDW system focuses on observing driver eye movements and issues warnings when distractions are detected. https://cdn.euroncap.com/media/30700/euroncap-roadmap-2025-v4.pdf Image Unavailable, Please Login The 'unknown' is what will Ferrari allow to be defeated...will have to wait for customer deliveries to figure that out, but all those ADAS items will be 'onboard' and watching you... That 2019 pre-GPF 812SF with only "HELE" (with defeat button that has to be pressed each time you start) seems like a bygone era in comparison!
Thanks for the very helpful reply. I agree with that definition. After reading your message the other thing I would add is whether the system will assume control over the vehicle. I find warnings (parking sensors, lane detection) extremely annoying, but far more tolerable than systems that actively intervene (automatic braking, for example). As for the "big brother is watching", yeah, creepy. But between my phones, cameras, home automation, etc., I'm afraid that ship has sailed for me. So I wouldn't let that alone stand in the way of buying a car I want. Unless perhaps insurance companies and authorities are going to start using the data against people. Which I suppose is very possible.
Well I am not worried about the data aspect bc Europe some stringent personal data laws about storing and using personally identifiable data.
Well said. The rest of that conversation was just pure nonsense. When asked to describe their design do we want them to say “we did it because we think it looks nice.”? If they can’t describe their work and demonstrate their technical knowledge and understanding what are they doing there? To call them pompous is well…pompous. And too disrespectful.
Thank goodness for the EU looking out for me. I mean I can't be trusted to look after my own well being, let alone that of society.
There is one thing I agree with you, this Enigma GT Concept coupé looks ridiculous. However, I'm sure that if the Enigma had Ferrari emblems, even though it was ridiculous, all units would be sold without the slightest problem and probably there would be a waiting list. Fortunately, we still know which was the last Ferrari in whose design and aesthetics Pininfarina collaborated and although Flavio Manzoni continues trying to convince us that he was the one who created and designed it, the lines as well as the Pininfarina emblems on the sides deny him. The only thing that the current Pininfarina company retains from the previous one is the name, however there is something that is ironic. The rear part of a Ferrari coupé V12 from the post-Pininfarina era recently presented, when compared with an Enigma GT Concept shows too many similarities.
Perfectly said. And no you’re not the only one who thinks like that, as the healthy number of likes to your post indicates. The general gnashing of teeth about the 12C is pretty funny. It is just so predictable with a new Ferrari - even the 458 suffered from it. It was called ‘too digital’, ‘no soul’, ‘too electronic’ and all the rest. Then at some point people accept the new design and what comes after becomes the focus of collective disgust and suddenly what was once incomprehensibly terrible, is now wonderful. Nothing is ever completely wonderful or completely terrible. Most love the F40, but some say it drives agriculturally and has such terrible build quality they would never want to own one. To me it is wonderful. But how can I disagree with the criticisms levelled against it? They are basically correct. I don’t abuse the designer or the people who have a different view, it’s just what it is. Celebrate the differences. For two years following Day355s declaration that the F167 was a classically styled beauty that the purists would love, we debated and discussed and many were scathing about the 812 and looking forward to the new car. But then the 12C is launched, cue much lament. It must be something about human nature. We immediately make up our mind based on a 2D picture and claim that our eyes know best, make definitive and bold statements before changing our minds over time as we begin to see with time what the designer also saw with time. It’s like that old Mark Twain quote…. Image Unavailable, Please Login
12Cilindri ADAS systems are same as being delivered now to Roma Spider and Purosangue in EU. Unwanted driver assist systems can all be turned off by 2 clicks and then 1 click to confirm using the steering wheel buttons. Menu option: ON, OFF, CUSTOM, EDIT CUSTOM. Except emergency braking, menu only select Very Near, Near, Far.
I’m not sure. The Enigma has no Ferrari language in it at all (except some elements from the second picture I posted below). I think Ferrari people would not be fooled by it. I can see why the delta wing ideas feel similar but they are in fact quite unconnected it seems. The glasshouse and the general method of producing the ‘fighter canopy’ appearance are very different. PF could read the Fchat thread as well as anyone. The fighter canopy idea was mentioned long ago. For PF the it’s just a concept design. For Ferrari, it is a fully resolved mass-producable product. That’s quite a difference and the suggestion that Ferrari copied PF is very likely quite wide of the mark. If you look at the second picture I posted, the aero exits behind the front wheels and out of the rear bumper are very similar to the 812 C. A three year old design. So I would more easily believe that PF are copying Ferrari Centro Stile instead of the other way around. Don’t you think? Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
