456 DIY, dare I?

Hi, as a DIY earlier on US MUsclecars, DeTomaso Pantera, Jaguars including early E-Types, I'm not afraid to be a DIY on exotic cars. Currently looking at pulling the trigger on getting a 2000 GTA, also considering 1995 GT.

Any 456 DIY readers? What's the issues specifically on a 456? I've worked on complex cars, including V12 (Jaguar XJS), so most things don't scare me. But what are the issues that seem to haunt this model specifically? That don't seem to be fixable? Or that are very very expensive?

-I've read about windows, not sure I understand, is it only electronic, or also alignment, or both? And is it just an origianal Ferrari weakness that can be fixed once and for all, or does it plague the owner all the time?
-Seat motors?
-Parts availability?
-...?

Any input is appreciated

 

Lots of DIYers on here on the platform. These cars are fine to maintain for the competent mechanic....

Windows are a known nuisance, but be be adjusted. Seat components as well. Recently there have ben some great threads on seat overhauls.

Electrical and cooling systems are another area that has some upgrades and recommended attention to conditions.

Under the hood and drive train is also very similar to 550 cars for the mechanics and maintenance schedules.

Much is very Italian in design that can make you go 'Hmmmm, wtf' but most is easy enough to understand. The Ferrari tax on parts can be manageable if you are planning ahead. My opinion has been these are expensive cars to break, but reasonable to maintain. Fortunately most parts have decent availability still, and great vendors around the world...

However not so much Window ECUs and headlight motors

I have loved my 456! It's a great car

 

Aerosurfer, great answer, and...
-"Electrical systems" can be a lot. Anything specific other than mentioned? I'm used to electrical issues en general on Pantera and Jaguars?
-I have to naively ask, what's a Ferrari tax?
-Any good online vendor in the EU I can look for availability and prices?

 

Get the 1995 gt. It’s the simplest and the best.
This car should give you zero trouble and is bulletproof

 

If you have dealt with British electronics, this should be a walk in the park…

Ferrari electronics from the early 80s have weak spots relating to the fuse board. On our platform, the Fuse/relay board carries all the load on essentially undersized carbon traces and connectors to distribute to the car. This causes delaminating, heat fatigue and burned melted connectors over the life of the car. There are a few people and vendors who are building upgraded fuse boards that address those problems, I have one in my car, it’s plug and play and significantly improved over the stock one.

The cooling fans are one of the largest draws on the car and constantly cycle on and off. A more recent common upgrade has become wiring them directly from the battery and using the stock relays as a signal to the new wiring instead of carrying the load.

The cooling system, when kept in top condition is adequate. The problems arise when one or more components aren’t in top shape and there is little extra capacity for the system to compensate. Some have tried bigger radiators, other water pumps, different T-stats, Vent lines, improved fans, etc. seems no one thing has worked across the board and different people and different climates have had various successes. Short answer is assess and overhaul the cooling system as needed to keep it in top condition. The overall fleet of 456/550 has some high mile cars, and plenty on here are still seeing regular use, despite the newest being over 20 years old now, so it is a very capable engine that can be made reliable.

Unique to the 456, the headlight and spoiler motors were used on this car and the Volvo 480 only… go figure. Used ones come up from time to time, but the motors can usually be rebuilt.

If you look on the sticky thread for part cross reference and interchange, you will see there are quite a lot of alternative parts that are exactly or very near to the Ferrari part. So paying Ferrari part number pricing, sometimes is needed, other times there is a much more reasonable and perfectly suitable part. That’s the Ferrari tax…

vendors in Europe….

Superperformance
http://superformance.co.uk/

Eurospares
https://www.eurospares.com/

Maranello classic parts
https://www.ferrariparts.co.uk/

Red Bay cars
https://redbaycars.com/

There are others, but those are who I have had good experiences ordering thru. Also don’t forget about good old EBay… nothing on these cars gets wasted

in the US, Ricambi America is a fantastic go-to.
https://www.ricambiworldwide.com/

Plenty of other US based part sources.

 

Both, although the latter may be due to weaknesses of components and wear and tear. Some folks have had to reproduce components in stronger materials (e.g. the regulator scissor mechanisms). As mentioned, there is a rarity of 456 Window ECUs, although the GT cars have a similar setup to the later 550 system with a single ECU (not located in the doors).

Seat control can be complex, but it is similar in some respects to Jaguar seats with fragile position sensing potentiometers. As mentioned elsewhere, finding wiring diagrams for the early cars is proving to be next to impossible outside Ferrari dealer workshops. The electrics on the later (GT) cars are very similar to the 550.

 

Looking for potential showstoppers, I spent some time looking at parts prices on Eurospares. I had expected expensive, but on some items, it seem very expensive. E.g. a Water radiator 165599, is not available, special order, and price, "from" EUR 5400. Is that the world of Ferrari 456 repair, is that a fair price level, or are there cheaper sources? In general?

Thanks

 

A quick search suggests that Ron Davis makes good aftermarket radiators for the 456(M).

 

Are you looking at a car that needs a radiator or asking as example of some extreme Ferrari pricing? They are out there, as well other companies that can make a better one. As mentioned Ron Davis has made all the 456 radiator variations.

If you are doing a 100% concourse car then you gotta do what it takes, for other things... I would at least search the threads on here and part cross reference threads for alternatives.

For a GTA, and even anything other than a really low mileage Gated car, I would put the radiator in that works best, not necessarily a factory replacement

 

If you can kept xjs going you will have no problem with 456.

 

FBB- Very accurate.

 

Today I saw and drove my prospect. It looks perfect, in and out. There were some issues when driving, one I would like your view on. The idle was very high cold, 1500 rpm, and kept it there longer than I would have normally expected. Later when driving, idle was erratic, not in any way V12 silky, wouldn't be surprised if not running on all 12. It drove very well though. When we got back after 45 min, idle was lower, but still above 1000, sounded unnaturally high.

Seller tells me all issues will be fixed, but being DIY he will sell it significantly cheaper if I just buy the car as is. Based on my description, can the forum state that it's "probably this known issue", or is it just "it can be anything, including very serious stuff"?

The car had a major service >€20k in 2019, has not driven much since then.

 

1400 rpm is typical of a cold idle, going down to 1000 rpm when warmed up, at least for my 550 but I'm pretty sure that would be the same for a 456.
If idle speed remains high-ish when warmed up it may just mean the ECUs have not completed the relearn process which needs to be redone each time the battery is disconnected. This is assuming everything else is fine, with no leak in the intake, etc.

 

What was the €20k service? Have you seen the records? Talk to that shop even?

Compression test at the very least... leak down if possible while you are in there... that can at least eliminate head issues, which aren't so DIY friendly.

Idle could be Vacuum leaks around the manifold gaskets, as well as from any hoses. Sticky or frozen Idle air valves too. Located under each intake elbow past the MAFs. Good time to check and clean all the electrical connections. If they haven't been replaced, it's likely the protective boots are needing replaced. Is the throttle cable from one TB to the other in decent condition and opening (and fully closing) both TBs evenly?

Ali above is DIY maintenance anyhow....

Look underneath at the rear of the clutch housing are the 2 crank sensors, the electrical connections live in a very hot location that is also common to eventually crack and fail

The relearn like stated above could also be a cause.

These aren't particularly rare cars, so don't fall in love with the wrong car....

Which model are you looking at a Newer GTA or an older GT?

 

Approx 2000 GTA

 

456 and 550 are very close. Lots cross over. The 348 ferrari Kia crank sensors I bought were a few dollars each. Shipping cost more than the sensors so I bought a dozen. I have never had to replace a kiss sensor. The wire path isn't iem but I use the Kia sensor that works on the 348 on my 550's. I bet the Kia will fit the 456 and never break like the oem Bosch sensors. 355s poisoned the well on ferraris with all the compression and leak down testing nonsense. I have never done pre purchase compression or leak down. I just drive the car. On a F355 that's a different story.

 

I have done the other sensors too

 

Currently seeing if seller and I can agree on price and terms. I prefer to buy as is, and at lower price. Alternative is that seller fixes all, and higher price. No surprise.
So I need to know what I would be dealing with myself. It has very few miles on it after major invoice from Ferrari dealer in 2019, where they replaced timing belts and set the valves. That was in 2019, so I'd say belts are due again, right? Seller talks about better belts making it 7 years now, I can't see that anywhere by googling, all say 5 years.
Any idea of DIY cost and complexity of belts? Or is it out of reach for DIY because of special tools required? Dealer only used 6 hours for belts, but 12 hours to set valves...
And is there other stuff I should expect to have to do when front of engine is apart?

 

Anyone? Have to make an offer to seller soon

 

Belts and tensioners are not that tough and there are threads here telling you how to do it. Specialized tools are no more than those used to rebuild a Chevy engine, except possibly the belt vibration tool. There are even apps for that for your smart phone.

 

Belts are easy. Lower cam drive bearings is a committed job if they need doing. How many km on the car?

 

85000km

 

Mine were ripe at 95000 km. Not a "hard" job but requires patience and focus.

 

Hello and good luck!
If the car has been sitting for 5 years-ish maybe just bad gas? or crud in the gas lines/injectors.
There's some known issues with the fuel pump gaskets that can corrode over time and foul up the fuel system. Easy enough to remove and clean / replace the injectors (if needed).
The seat potentiometers are a known issue and there is plenty of info on here how to trouble shoot / fix them.
Like others have said if you can take car of an older jag you should have no problem with a 456.
cheers and send some pics!

 

28,000 miles one of mine was shot…