812 Replacement Rumors

Yes, but if they sell the 800 hp car as the "fastest, most extreme, etc...", what are they going to say about the mid engine with 1000 hp. Anyway, it´s all marketing speech, product positioning and that stuff, the well informed V12 buyer knows what they have.

 

My guess:

a) Because they can
b) Because customers want them
c) Because it's a big FU2 to the moronic anti-everything vehicle haters in the EU

Just guessing of course

 

Rather like Germany, which is also finito.

 

I have the slide deck that Ferrari produced for the F12B and have posted it several times. It does indeed provide for its genealogy as the direct descendant of the 599GTO and is labeled as their ultra high performance sports car and their flagship. It shows the California as their GT. The slide deck is on my other laptop that has a failed battery but I can dig it up and repost if you wish. What Ferrari says now is post LdM and the V12 is no longer the flagship so they've postured it as a GT starting with the 812. However, they can't rewrite their history.

 

Well, actually, they aren´t: the only new engine they´ve done in a while is the V6 of the 296/499, the rest are evolutions of the stuff they already had.

Anyway, Porsche is going to reduce the Taycan production because it´s not selling and their shareholders are asking for less electric cars (right now their intention is to sell only EVs except the 911). A few days ago I read the Mercedes CEO said they´re investing in petrol engines again, and even some diesel models that had been discountinued in Europe, like the Stellantis vans, have returned to the market. I think the ban on smokey engines is not so inminent. The politics in Brussels may want it but they´ve less power than the whole auto industry. Yep, for good or for bad, that´s the way democracy works: people votes with their wallet.

 

In normal pictures from this angle, different from the aerial views that Manzoni and Ferrari like to show, the 12 C coupé is not pretty and in terms of design it shows some lack of coherence between the rear part and the rest of the car. Interestingly the one that is camouflaged looks slimmer. This is one of the angles I want to observe when I see the car in person and who knows, I might have a pleasant surprise.




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The latest pictures of the red 12 C coupé with a light camouflage. After seeing these pictures I don't change a word to what I wrote on the previous post.


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Metallic paint a must, confirmed by the top photo.

 

Everyone has an opinion. My initial reaction to the pic on top is quite positive.


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It was proclaimed a sports car in the marketing material, not a GT (even though they refer to all road cars as GTs when compared to prototypes, as per the FIA race cars classification). The Portofino and the GTC4 were presented as the GTs.

 

From the marketing material that's been posted here, the 12cilindri is the first one that is claimed to be less sporty than the previous model (the 812 in this case).
The top range sports model is now with the SF90 line; I think there are both technical and regulatory reasons for that (12 cylinders is not optimal anymore for high performance, and hybrid is pushed by the regulations).

 

For those of us who do want(lust?) HP and performance in a front mid engine design why don’t they supply the 12C with the option of a small performance hybrid motor assist option similar to what Porsche has done- add a 150HP electric motor and small battery- to the already potent 830HP V12. I’ll live with the slight addition of weight for the added rush.
Yes I know it’s not purist for us V12 lovers but 980hp?…Very tempting…
Since the V12 appears to have reached a ceiling development wise and Ferrari can’t seem to significantly lighten the weight of the car anymore, this would make for a killer VS version


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Because Ferrari fired the V12 development team lead one month after the SP3 reveal, that's why. They no longer have any ability to do V12 development, that is by their choice. And, rumor is the 12Cilindri was very close to being completely cancelled, again, Ferrari has zero interest in continuing the V12 development.

Remember, the 12Cilindri V12 is straight from the 812C, so it was literally a 3-year old engine at time of 12Cilinidri reveal, that should make it completely obvious Ferrari has no interest in V12 development.

 

I have a new worry.

What if (1) 12C sales underperform because (a) they went too far with the price increase and (b) the design turns off too many would-be buyers, then (2) Ferrari brass misinterprets this as a sign that clients don't care that much about the V12?

Ugh. Does anyone else share this worry? Does anyone have any idea how sales are actually performing? I hope it's doing well. That would make my concerns moot.

 

I was referring to the 812, not the 12 Cilindri, so we agree. A 12 cylinder is still optimal for performance (i.e. Valkyrie), but the regulators are indeed pushing towards smaller engines. Ferrari could have done a V12 hybrid, like the LaFerrari, but they always want to have a connection with the current crop of racing cars, especially in F1. Plus they reap the technical rewards of the LeMans V6 winning formula.

You keep saying that, but it 's not true. There is no such thing as a "V12 development team". Any mechanical engineer worth his/her degree can develop any kind of engine. The fact that Leiters left doesn't mean anything. Ferrari still have hundreds of engine specialists!

 

Especially for the coupe, remember, once the 812 was demoted and the SF90 became the flagship, 812SF orders literally went to the floor (one of the biggest blunders by Ferrari ever), the 812GTS did ok, because it was the first regular production open top V12 in decades. So, chances are good the 12Cilindri Spider will sell well but the coupe could be quite rare.

And, do not forget, Ferrari does not have the ability to make a lot of 12Cilindri, at least for a few more years due to Purosangue consuming most of V12 production, so, until at least 2027 I presume 12Cilindri production will be quite low (maybe 1000 per year, maybe).

Regarding styling, digital interior, for some those are seen as good things, so, there will be an audience, but then there is the lack of sounds and its considerable girth, which will be more obvious once customer deliveries start.

Overall, I think the 12Cilindri will be a harder sell, mostly because it is not the flagship.

 

Personally, I'd prefer it to stay unelectrified because I love the way the V12 delivers power. I'd hate to lose that character.

I also suspect that it's possible to get more performance from an NA V12. It would just require a clean sheet of paper approach, which would be an enormous R&D expense. As others have pointed out, Ferrari appears to have ruled out this path. Still, I wonder if they did so expecting a less V12-friendly regulatory regime. Perhaps there's hope they'll revisit that decision?

All that said, I completely understand why you and others would like the 1000bhp V12 hybrid path. And to be clear, I hardly hate the idea! Maybe Ferrari could figure out how to do it without changing the character of the V12. If anyone could pull that off, it's Ferrari.

I think there are two good reasons to take the path you're proposing: (1) a lot of clients would prefer it, and (2) it could keep the V12 commercially viable far longer by improving efficiency and reducing emissions.

So, long story short, I support your proposal.

 

Is this an accurate inference? I thought the SF sales sagged because the GTS came online?

If this is what limits sales, that seems unlikely to be misinterpreted as weak demand by the Ferrari boss. That's a constraint on supply that should make it easier for demand to exceed supply.

No doubt. The question is how big that audience will be. And if it's smaller than they expected, will they draw the wrong conclusions?

Yes, I should add that to my list of turnoffs that Ferrari might misinterpret. Nannies too.

 

I'm still not convinced; reducing the displacement of one cylinder increases the specific output, but multiplying the number of cylinders introduces some power losses.
The technology evolution has continuously decreased the advantage of cylinder size reduction, so that the "ideal" cylinder size has kept growing (so for a given engine displacement, the ideal number of cylinders has been decreasing - that's true for all engines, now small cars engines go to 3 cylinders, and BMW has given up the 6 on medium cars a long time ago). Now the 12 cylinders, or 16 for the Bugatti, are more for the prestige than for the performance.

 

V12s (and I6s) have advantages in their inherent balance (allows for less rotating mass, higher revs, smoother power delivery) but disadvantages in terms of packaging. I think packaging becomes a bigger concern when you also have to accommodate turbos and hybrid tech.

I also believe that one of the largest advantages of reducing displacement per cylinder is the ability to generate more power with higher revs (which is a potent combination when coupled with the smoothness and large total displacement of the V12). But turbos largely obviate this need because (a) you need less total displacement to make the same power, and (b) you don't need high revs to make torque. So they can go with smaller engines with fewer cylinders and less revs. Efficient yes, but exciting? You decide.

If you start with the premise that an unelectrified, NA engine is the goal, however, I think the V12 remains king.

Plus, it sounds like a V12.

 

100% accurate, I witnessed it in real time and so did many others. Right around the SF90 reveal and its crowning as flagship, nearly every pending 812SF order was immediately changed to SF90. The result was you could order, in May 2019, immediately receive an allocation for an 812SF and have it literally delivered by August! And the 812SF order queue never recovered. The 812GTS reveal was in September 2019, which did not help of course and 812SF allocations remained highly available. For USA fewer than 1200 812SF were delivered, making it fairly rare for a Ferrari V12 model.

 

Interesting, thanks! Didn't realize this, I was not in the market for either at the time.

 

I don't believe that anyone has accused the LaFerrari of not having that V12 character...

Contrary to what BMW would have you believe, there is no such thing as an "ideal" cylinder size. Even to this day a 6 litre V12 will be able to rev higher than a 6 litre V8. The difference today is that with turbocharging, revs are not that important anymore. Also, more cylinders mean more losses, which affects efficiency (and CO2 emissions). Regarding BMW (and others), their "ideal" cylinder size is purely a financial decision as they make scalable engines with the same basic design. Want a 2 litre engine? Okay, 4 cylinders, in line. Want a 3 litre? Same engine design, just add two more cylinders. Finally less cylinders mean less components, which another cost cutting measure. Not saying that Ferrari is doing it for this reason (even though a V12 is more expensive to make), but mass production manufacturers certainly take that into account.

 

Its more a facelift model

 

Its more like lipstick on a pig. The car is fatter( weight challenged in wokespeak), bigger, with a 3 year old engine and priced like it’s the top of the line Ferrari.
As much as I don’t want to move on to another mark, the AM Vanquish may end up being the better car at 2/3 the price


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