812 Replacement Rumors

I agree. Ferrari designs and products are getting too woke and too beta energy for my liking.

I never thought I would see the day, but just as Ferrari starts veering hard in the wrong product direction under its current CEO, and design chief, here comes Aston Martin and Lamborghini, both under proper alpha male leadership and introducing new models that threaten to topple Ferrari’s silent king of the hill status.

McLaren interiors and over all designs just straight up suck and if they don’t make better designs I don’t know if they’re going to make it. Ferrari has to be really careful here. If they keep emasculating their products, they could easily fall into a tailspin themselves. Aston and Lamborghini are coming hard for them now and with more exciting products.

 

This is true, however, since its release Ferrari specifically refers to the 812 as a GT. They did not do this with the F12B. Ferrari was positioning the upcoming hybrid as the ultra high performance sports car so the 812 just became a cruiser with a big engine. It pretty ridiculous but that's what happened.

 

12 Cilindri has all of its 4 corners heavily cut/curved. So when taking pictures from close distance like in the first picture, both nose and and rear are not fully visible, giving it a shorter look than it actually is.

 

This is true for me, I never thought the day would come for me to order a Lambo - but it has happened!!

 

I think it is wrong to say it is the same car and engine. A lot has changed. Here a list of some notable changes since F12 berlinetta.

F12 berlinetta => 812 Superfast

Engine:
- Increased stroke
- Direct injection pressure increased from 200 to 350 bar
- Variable length intake trumpets

Car:
- 4 wheel steering
- 2 cm wider front wheels

812 Superfast => 12 Cilindri

Engine:
- New cylinder heads with sliding finger followers
- Titanium con rods (40% lighter)
- Lighter pistons
- Rebalanced, 3% lighter crankshaft
- Compacted manifolds and plenums with shorter tracts (still with variable length intake trumpets)
- Diamond-like Carbon (DLC) coating on piston pins, cams and finger followers

Car:
- New chassis using hollow castings (15% improvement in torsional rigidity)
- 8-speed gearbox (30% faster gear shifts)
- 20 mm shorter wheelbase and 21 inch wheels (space between tyres reduced 45 mm)
- More accessible boot (lid opens from further down and is now electrically operated)
- Roof options (standard, glass, carbon)
- Active aerodynamics (flaps)

As I see it, 12 Cilindri is a car that leans more towards classic GT features but adds much racier engine on top of it. Let's wait for the test drives.

 

now, do this engine comparison:

812 Competizione=> 12 Cilindri

and I believe you will find no changes...that's the "3-year old engine" of the 812C hiding in plain sight...

 

I don’t know man.. the 812C and SF90XX are the most aggressive Ferrari designs we have seen for as long as I can remember. They are full of testosterone those things. But hey each to their own.

 

That's true. 12 Cilindri just has even more highly tuned engine with max torque arriving 250 rpm higher. They needed to do this in order reach the same horsepower, because emission reduction related stuff such as ceramic catalytic converter reduce the available torque.

But at least you can get the essentially same 3 year old engine with much cheaper price now.

 

These two pictures are very recent and show a red 12 C coupé with light camouflage seen from two different angles. Seen from the front it looks very wide and without looking anything extraordinary, I consider the car acceptable. However, looking at the other lower view of the side and rear I really don't like what I see, even taking into account the possible parallax errors that exist in a normal picture which were pointed out by Inox in his previous post. The lack of coherence in design between the rear part of the 12 C coupé and the rest of the car is something that I'm internalizing as I see more and more pictures. Therefore, even if the car seems more appealing to me when I see it in person, I doubt I will change my opinion regarding this amalgamation that is its design.



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Yeah thats great. A total of 2,996 vehicles available for the entire global population.

Nice try. What else you gonna cite in your argument … SP3? lol

 

Nice pics.

I don't really know what part of the design bothers you most. I get some Porsche 924 vibes from the rear, which I rather wouldn't want to have. But overall, I like the also the rear end design.

It's funny how the front looks almost straight in the first pic. In real life the nose is much pointier like in the concept drawings. This seems to be common issue in several pictures.

 

I'm excited to see this part in person. Pictures make it look very flat and squarish, but it's clear in some of the better videos that there's depth and movement that doesn't come across in two dimensions. Going to be cool to see how it works in person.

 

It's curious, when I saw the 12 C for the first time from that angle I also felt these Porsche vibes but at the time more of the 928. Here the two cars are side by side in order that each one can make his own interpretation.







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Have to admit that 928 is much closer in form with 12 Cilindri.

924 has a more reminiscent rear spoiler though and a rear window that bends a bit like the delta wing.

 

I do look forward to seeing it in person but the car looks like there were different design teams for the front and rear and another for the middle and top.
I frankly didn’t like the 812 when it first emerged but was better in person. Can’t say that for the GTS- not as fluid as the SF- those pontoons were shaped incorrectly IMHO and Ferrari cheated using their parts bin to save money (on a $500K car- come on man!- as our senile&chief would say)
The 12C fixes that problem with the Spider much better looking than the coupe in the rear 3/4 view.
That being said, the competition is breathing down Ferrari’s neck as AM, Lambo and Porsche are getting better and better. Even MB is getting closer. Unlike McLaren the former all have deeper pockets for R&D and would love to steal business from Ferrari- who is spending their R&D on the FEV when their reputation was built on ICE-V12s in particular


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It’s not crazy what you’re saying

 

Ferrari as a company is operating in a different universe compared to AM.

AM continually is stuck in a circling-the-drain vortex. AM has horrific capital structure and is overweight in debt and can easily capsize in any two bad consecutive quarters. McLaren has been stuck in this situation as well. Lambo is very much a captive subsidiary with little upside participation.

Porsche continues to make great cars.…that all look like the same model.

In terms of this “alpha male” statement, I am not sure what selection criteria what one of the other commenters used for a CEO. Clearly, not ones that relate to success. Since 1995, I made my investors quite happy by backing and placing the right CEOs and growing startups into public companies. I know what a good CEO looks like and talks like and acts like. And Vigna is the real deal. Stroll is a showman, not a great executor.

No need to believe my words. Just read the facts about Ferrari’s latest quarter. (and this has been going on for several years). There is no other car company that is remotely putting down these numbers. None.

Relative to units, their cash flow is scaling superlinearly as does their net income. Revenue is as well. By crushing their competition at this level, they get superior vendors, employees, tech, etc because people want to work with the winner.

Here are the facts so all can see the real picture of how Ferrari is crushing the competition financially and creating plenty of cash for development:

https://ssoreport.com/ferrari-q1-2024

 

All true until now..
The path for electrification is a huge mistake for Ferrari I fear.

 

Let's hope. The company needs a bit of a wake up call, so their path for electrification not becoming a huge success would force some self insight among the C-suite and board.

 

Yes you are right. This is the biggest risk. It’s the reason Rimac is not selling well, yet Koenigsegg has demand.

The question is what the sound will be given what management has said. They have said it will be great. If Ferrari has something that is great, it will be incredible. I have no clue or imagination here that can be based on any facts, so I won’t insert any fantasy ideas from a Star Trek episode. (automatically dates me )

At the same time, Ferrari did say that pure EV will be 40% in 2030. And I believe 40% hybrid and 20% ICE. So it’s not going to be the whole company.

Also, the EU will have to come up with a viable plan to have an EU friendly / based battery manufacturer. Optimally that has control of its lithium. Please correct me here as I don’t know this area well: Bolivia, Argentina and Chile have 47 million metric tons combined. Useful as China is building a huge seaport in Peru. US 7 million metric tons; Australia 6; China 3; Canada 3; Congo 3; Germany 3; Mexico 2; Czech 1; Serbia 1; Russia 1. Also, there is very large lithium field south of Kiev in Ukraine.

My guess is that if the EU wants to decarbonize and they don't want to be geopolitically captive, there will need to be guaranteed lithium. And since battery formulation and packaging is critical to power draw and dynamics, there could be an “Airbus” in lithium batteries for the EU to counter Tesla and Panasonic.

The exact chemistry, battery cell, packaging, and cluster pack defines how much power can be stored and how fast and how much can be delivered. This is why Tesla might have enough kilowatt hour of energy for a few laps but their packaging and chemistry doesn’t allow for continued fast and significant power draw without a lot of heat and power dropoff. Perhaps Ferrari will innovate here.

If I had to guess, developments for advanced battery development in the EU could push the date for mandatory EV further into the future.

 

Being prepared for EV is better than not.

However, I think this was the most interesting part behind the link that gzachary already shared:

https://ssoreport.com/ferrari-q1-2024

Electric Cars: Ferrari remains committed to launching its 1st EV in Q4 2025. First shipments are likely towards the end of 2026. The new “e-building”, where Ferrari will build its EV’s, is on track to be inaugurated in June 2024. It’s clear that Vigna personally has a lot of passion and personal interest in Ferrari’s EV program. What was also quite insightful, on the earnings call for the first time, Vigna stated that they will also be building hybrid cars in the “E-building”. This could indicate that Ferrari has “reset” expectation on how many EVs they can or should produce given what is happening in the larger EV market currently (see: The Coming EV Reckoning).

 

EV won’t be mandatory in Europe because people living in countryside ( France ) won’t be able to afford them.

 

Fundamentalists have for years imposed their utopia of a green Europe through the radical elimination of the ICE. However, the current party group with the most votes in the recent elections for the European parliament seems to have a much more pragmatic and realistic approach to this issue. The points that stand out in this party’s plans are; “revising the ban on combustion engines and developing cutting-edge combustion engine technology” and "revising the rules for CO2 reduction for new cars and vans to allow for the use of alternative zero-emission fuels beyond 2035."

Everything seems to come together so that the ICE will not be banned in the EU from 2035 onwards and that changes everything. ICEs will continue to develop technologically to reduce emissions and, eventually, it will be possible to achieve zero emissions using alternative fuels.

If this new paradigm goes ahed in the EU, we will most likely continue to see for many years to come new V12 and V8 models from Ferrari and other manufacturers. However, the following question will arise; Will an electric Ferrari model make any sense when ICE ones are still available and improving? Whatever the answer is, it seems that we won't stop hearing any time soon the sound of the V12 and V8 in future Ferrari models. That's why I guess that for many years to come it will be neither the engine nor the driving experience that will make us like or not Ferrari's new models. If we eventually won't like a new Ferrari we can only blame those who designed it.