The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

I had not read the following, and beg forgiveness if it had been posted before.
Anyhow, here it is and might make the 'lithany of #0846' well known to the unillustrated, such as I.

"A letter from Ferrari S.p.A., dated September 29th, 2004, Subject: P3/4 Chassis no. 0846:

Dear Mr. Glickenhaus,

We wish to thank you for the extensive dossier you have sent regarding the above mentioned vehicle that as confirmed on our letter dated October 5th, we have examined in detail. The car was built on February 1966 as a P3 version and during its racing period, officially managed by the Factory, it went though several modifications in order to race the 24 hours of Daytona in 1967 as a P3/4. We also confirm that, as reported in your dossier, the car caught fire during the 24 hours of Le Mans. It was then totally dismantled and because of the extended damages detected, the factory decided not to perform any repair and to write off the chassis no. 0846. If some of the remaining components such as engine and gearbox were considered as possible spare parts, the chassis, because of its racing history and the fire damages suffered, was definitively scrapped. Therefore eventual pieces retrieved from the trash container should not have been used to rebuild or to revival a car which was written off, if this is the case. We all would like to see forever these glorious pieces but unfortunately the chassis no. 0846 had a sad conclusion.

Yours faithfully, Ferrari Classiche, Umberto Masoni"

05/may/31-jun/05
Targa Florio/Giro di Sicilia Revival Jim Glickenhaus #090

Mauro Forghieri's Assessment:
From: Mauro Forghieri <mafo@*****.it>
To: Steven Robertson <robertson365@***.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 10 May 2016, 16:27:51 BST
Subject: P4

Gent.mo Sig. Robertson

Io penso che lei sia il maggiore esperto di P4 esistente.La serie di foto che mi ha inviato mi hanno fatto enorme piacere, in particolare quella della 412 s/n854 prima nuda e poi in restauro. Le devo comunque fare osservare che sia la vettura di Glinkenhaus che la vera P4 s/n 0858 non hanno il tubo da lei indicato con le frecce rosse nella foto n 4(412 P s/n0854 ) mentre hanno il tubo che lei indica sempre con le frecce nella foto n 3(dp3 arrows).
Questo diversa soluzione è dovuta alle differenze tra motore 412 e 330. La parte posteriore del telaio della falsa P4 di Glinkenhaus è stata fatta nuova e questi particolari non potevano sfuggire ai carrozzieri, che avevano già costruito vere P4. E'nella parte anteriore che non è stata rifatta, che mi sembra sia la maggiore distanza dal vero.Lei dimostra comunque che la vettura di Glinkenhaus non è una P4 originale con le sue foto relative al motore,ed inoltre la posizione della stessa Ferrari, che ha negato il numero a cui è molto affezzionato Glinkenhaus,e la mia stessa convinzione negativa e quanto asserito da altri non dovrebbe fare credere che questa vettura possa essere considerata originale.
Io non sono potuto andare in Sicilia per motivi di salute e di lavoro, ma sarò a Montecarlo. Ho cercato di fare chiarezza sui due tipi di telaio per evitarle commenti e problematiche.

Grazie per tutto con infinite cordialità e rispetto.

Mauro Forghieri "

The letter from Forghieri, ought to make Glickenhaus hide in shame forever.
Even I got the essence of both letters, and kudos to Mr. Robertson for his tenacity.

Regards, Alberto

 

Just to add a tidbit for the fans out there : https://glickenhausadventure.com/

Wow, the gall...

 

Alberto, not that any of this makes any difference to me, but since you are more apt with Italian language and its nuances, would you mind translating the text of the M. F. email to English and perhaps add/include any of your personal interpretations of nuances, if any appear present ?
Just curious.

 

Timo,

I should have thought about it before...so here it is.

"Most Kind Mr. Robertson
I think you are the greatest P4 expert in existence. The series of photos you sent me gave me enormous pleasure, in particular that of the 412 s/n854, first naked and then under restoration. However, I must point out to you that both the Glinkenhaus car and the real P4 s/n 0858 do not have the tubing that you indicate with the red arrows in photo no. 4(412 P s/n0854) while they have the tubing that you always indicate with the arrows in photo n 3(dp3 arrows).
This different solution is due to the differences between the 412 and 330 engines. The posterior of the chassis of Glinkenhaus' fake P4 was made new and these details could not escape the bodymakers, who had already built real P4s. It is in the anterior section of the chassis which has not been redone,
which seems to me to be the greatest distance from truth.
You demonstrate that Glinkenhaus' car is not an original P4 with your photos relative to the engine,
and also the position of Ferrari itself, who denied the number that Glinkenhaus is very fond of, and my own negative conviction and what others have asserted should not lead one to believe that this car can be considered original.
I could not go to Sicily for health and work reasons, but I will be in Monte Carlo. I tried to shed light on the two types of chassis to avoid you ulterior comments
and problematic issues.

Thank you for everything with infinite cordiality and respect.

Mauro Forghieri"

PS. Personally, I cannot dare comment more, as it seems from the above letter. that Mr. Robertson enjoys Ing. Forghieri utmost respect/due diligence.

Recognizing someone of his stature, and involvement/management, with these cars, ought to pay respect to his opinions. They are very clear and concise,
and should recognize that to be told by Ing. Forhieri: "I think you are the greatest P4 expert in existence."

This, is a great recognition to Mr. Robertson.

The only irony I perceive, is "the number that Glinkehaus (sic) is very fond of", I think it is a typical Italian comment of derision.

Remember my 'little' story? Of his triumphal entrance via a grand boat, in Lake Como, at the Villa d'Este Concours, where all (most) the 'conoscenti' said...
che stronzo...

Regards, Alberto

 

Thank you Alberto.

 

Bravo Steve, and thank you Alberto.

 

… but I do wish to add having been initially quite surprised seeing you posting what appears to be someone else’s private(?) communications.

Also, after reading the translation you kindly provided of M.F.s message, instead of viewing it as a simple straightforward answer like probably many or at least some here, it just filled my mind with more questions, especially without knowing/seeing the full context and/or everything (including private comms) leading up to it.
And while I’m not a diplomat, legal or literary scholar, I’ve always been curious by nature and do feel sorry for any unsuspecting/-willing(?) pawns getting dragged into something like this, especially when the outcome doesn’t really mean anything other than to serve some bruised/fragile egos.

P.S. I certainly hope all “our” private communications will remain just that.

 

Timo, not private at all:

http://www.barchetta.cc/english/all.ferraris/detail/0846.330p3.htm

And, I am like a pharaoh, very discreet

Regards, Alberto

 

and the beat goes on…..

 

and on and on and on . . .

 

Has 0846G been seen recently?

 

Yep, crossing the Hudson, on a road to nowhere...

 

With people like @TTR failing to understand that Forghieri, the real car’s creator, has clearly stated the Glickenhaus P4 is a fake and continually posting drivel, then yes the thread will go on and on and on…

Without Forghieri’s statement, I have posted substantial photographic evidence with explanations proving the car is a fake and yet we still get the likes of @TTR posting rubbish. What doesn’t he understand about “falsa P4 di Glinkenhaus…”and much more from Forghieri?

 

+ 1

 

And yes, whilst I do appreciate and thank you for your recent translation of Forghieri's email to me, it was already posted in this thread 7 years ago in 2017 along with an English translation by Gabrieli Longoni. No disrespect but it's people like you who keep posting in this thread with no knowledge of its previous content that keeps the perpetuation of nonsense on and on and on crossing the Hudson....

 

Yes.

 

So annoying to see the James Glickenhaus P3/4 fake referred to with the numbers 0846 even with a G next to them.

 

Ing. Forghieri's email dated 10th May, 2016 to me is confirmation of all the following points:

1. The Glickenhaus P4 and the real P4 0858 do not have the tubing I indicated with the red arrows. (P4 chassis omit the tubing I arrowed that a 412P chassis, which is the same as a P3 chassis, would have due to the differences between a 412P engine, which is physically the same as a P3 engine, and a 330 P4 engine). Mr Glickenhaus always stated that his chassis retained the vestigial 0846 P3 engine mounting tubing. If it did, the tubing that I arrowed would be present on his chassis, but it is not, and proves that the replica chassis has been built using P4, not P3 plans as Mr Glickenhaus has been so emphatic and so very wrong about.
2. The Glickenhaus P4 is a fake.
3. The rear of the chassis is wrong and the original builders would not miss the incorrect details.
4. The unmodified front section is the most distant from real.
5. I demonstrated that the Glickenhaus car is not an original P4 relative to the engine.
6. Ferrari denied the number 0846 to Mr Glickenhaus.
7. His own negative conviction and what others have asserted, people should not be lead to believe that the car can be considered original.
8. He tried to shed light on the differences between the 2 types of chassis.

@TTR What may I ask are your more questions?

 

Flogging a dead horse? As bad as the Hudson, since this has been stated before, or not.

 

Not flogging a dead horse at all. For most people all the evidence is linked here for people to decide whether or not the Glickenhaus P4 is built on the remains of the chassis of Ferrari's #0846, but @TTR has more questions, so let us hear what they are.

Or is this just another unjustifiable swipe by him at the highly detailed evidence along with the determination by the car's creator that I have provided?

Over to you @TTR. Let us see if you can do better than this, which is all you've ever come up with previously.

 

This has become a 1 on 1 debate. Why don't write via PM and evacuate your issues
in private , and spare us all of the on and on and on?

You have proven the fake, @TTR has issues with that, go to the park, and play respectfully.

Please keep 'ignorants' as I, and prevent :

"...people like you who keep posting in this thread with no knowledge ( clearly )
of its previous content that keeps the perpetuation of nonsense on and on and on crossing the Hudson..."

 

No, @TTR's unmoderated personal attacks are always in public. He initiates them, not me, so I will respond here.

 

Alberto, I’m sorry to have taken this long to reply and in all fairness I didn’t really think you being clueless enough to post someone else’s (private?) communications in efforts to advance some utterly pointless agenda which probably less than 0.000001% of world’s population care about.

As I mentioned, that email raises several questions and here’s but one (and since I suspect you’re like me and rest of the 99.999999%, you can consider it rhetorical).
Is there even real proof/record M.F. having granted a permission to publicize that email ?

Also, I find it ironic that this so-called, but obviously clueless expert/researcher continually fails to see/understand my points on commenting or replying to his, even after making them quite clear, more than once, over the years.
Hint: They aren’t about a car or anything debatable.

 

Oh wise one, please tell us.

 

So, that is the end of ...

The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread