The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

The thread that won't die. Calling Dr. Kevorkian!

 

We wish.
Had someone exhibited integrity and self-respect years ago by just stating their case & evidence, dropping the mic and walked away with their head up high, this thread might’ve died/ended somewhat honorably, but …

WHAT ???

I was under the impression (dare I say hope ?) a fool like me would’ve been on permanent ignore by Forever Texans ?

Or are you perhaps one of those the wisest of all master debater’s calls (and I’m just paraphrasing) “clueless, lazy idiot unable to pay attention or do their own research and other than music videos, contributes nothing” ?

Anyhoo, my points/views, along with some unanswered questions have already been laid out in this thread, so to paraphrase the proverbial “0846” Don Quixote “Do your own homework !”

OTOH, if you don’t feel like doing it, just wait for an expert to find & post them all here, there or anywhere.

P.S. I can hardly wait if a book and a movie or TV (mini-)series based on it gets made.
I have suggestions who might be able to portray my character authentically.

 

Agree. Instead he misrepresented facts, bullied and threatened litigation, and leveraged unwitting participants at every turn while refusing to refute or even acknowledge legitimate evidence and concerns. Then of course he slinked off of this forum all together and instead took up a paid public campaign of deception and fantasy in attempt to revise history. Oddly though, despite these plainly dishonorable actions we still have the errant sycophant or “believer in the original story” as it were randomly posting drivel veiled as retort which of course perpetuates the thread.

 

???
I assume (hope ?) you don't mean me as a "believer in the original story", as that would suggest you could also be seen as one of those the master debater calls "clueless ... ".

You wouldn't also by chance be blinded by some personal issues unrelated to this debacle of a debate ?

P.S. For one more time and I going to w r i t e r e a l s l o w l y for those who still don't get it: I t m a k e s a b s o l u t e l y n o d i f f e r e n c e t o m e w h a t t h e s u b j e c t i s o r i s n ' t .

I know there is that +/-0.000001% that appears to care about it, but I don't.

 

Then why are you here?

 

Damn, you're good. You're really good.

 

Like many others, education & entertainment.
You ?

 

I just arrived. Let me get some peanuts and read over the weekend. Or is there a summary?
If this car is, or is not a P3/4, why won't we just name it "Ferrari 0846" instead? Get the supporting dossier, "integrate it", and get over ourselves.

The value will be decided when it gets sold again.

If I was wealthy, I would buy it. Alas, that IS probably why I am not wealthy. Too impulsive.
Like my response ;-)

Have a good weekend!

 

I think you are only here to continually cast doubt over the facts which have been stated multiple times. Maybe it's time to let the big ego go and not further spoil this thread with petty personal attacks? It's quite frankly tiring, adds absolutely nothing to the discussion about this car and makes it more difficult for newer members who want to learn about this vehicle to find the excellent posts in this thread outlining its history.

Or we can rename the thread "the one and only act like a c h i l d b e c a u s e i a m b o r e d thread" ?

 

The thread was dormant until the user who is obsessed with having the last word about anything ancillarily related to 0846 decided to awaken it. Which is like a flame to all the moths who like to debate semantics and other extremely relevant issues (as I'm replying I should probably include myself in this category too).

 

Just responding to and clarifying misinformation posted that many people wrongly believe to be true, that I have actually taken the time and trouble to find the truth of directly from Ferrari, that I was prevented from doing at the time it was posted due to being banned from posting in the thread. Then I get more ungrateful drivel like yours above.

 

The shortest reply is this. #0846 crashed badly, twice, once at the Targa Florio where a corner was damaged, the last time at Le Mans, it was returned to Ferrari who recorded it as demolito. Meanwhile David Piper had acquired enough spares for his P cars and further spares when Ferrari stopped racing sportscars at the end of '67 and decided in the 1970s to build up three P3/4s. To build them he turned to Tom Meade to supply three (or more) chassis, Meade is said to have had a local shop build them in Modena and they were soon shipped to Switzerland and then the UK. Marcel Massini said he saw an original P3 or P4 frame at this juncture. Piper built his three cars in the 1990s, one to P3/4 form and they were offered at a Monaco auction in circa 1987, where they didn't sell.

Jim G enters the frame in 2002 and buys DP003, sending it to mid west Ferrari expert John Hajduk. Hajduk stripped the car back to the frame which he claims showed the same damage as the crash at the Targa. Since then Jim has claimed that Meade told him he bought the chassis of #0846 from Enzo himself, Meade being very well connected at Maserati and Ferrari in this period, so maybe. Ferrari itself have stuck to their "It was demolished in 1967" statement and that makes sense. David Piper should have known what he had since he was one of the few experts of the type so that suggests something. And since its '02-05 restoration Jim G hasn't allowed it to be certified or anything else, so that doesn't help solve it one way or another but is likely significant.

 

I hear what you’re saying, but wonder if you realize most of it probably applies more to S.R. and his merry band of cheerleaders, all whom continue being far more prolific contributors to this thread than I.

I also wonder how many realize the irony that each comment, reply or retort to mine or anyone else’s, not to mention every “like” click will continue fueling the fire and proving the presence of numerous bored children willing (eager ?) to perpetuate this debacle of a thread on and on …
Anyone who seriously wants to see this thread to stop, all they have to do is quit contributing/participating.
It's really that simple.

I do agree with the thread rename suggestion as it would certainly better reflect everything it has been about for past decade or more, perhaps since the beginning.

*I’m also not sure how many realize this thread stopped having any resemblance to a “debate” years ago and in its entirety has since been pretty much nothing but boring, repetitious drivel ever since and has very little to do with “history”, unless you count for the two revisionist versions neither wich may not have anything to do with reality.
You know, kind of like some believe Oswald acted alone, some are convinced Putin is a good guy, some claim Holocaust or slavery didn’t happen, etc… (but unlike this, are actually important topics to more than a small group or two of fanatical revisionists).
Every person just chooses a view of history they prefer to believe in, whether it’s based on reality or not.
That’s all folks.

 

Have a read through the links in this post: #10477

Post '67 Targa crash:

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From Targapedia.com

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From Racinginthepast.com

Le Mans accident:

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Photos and info have surely been shared previously in this thread, but since we seem to be going round in circles.......

 

Quite a bit of misinformation above.

 

FIFY.

 

Please stop. People beat the living crap out of Steve when he posted his information, it has been very thoroughly battle tested. You have no idea what you are talking about on this topic. If you have specific data to contradict anything, post it up. Instead you are just making vague statements that are meaningless and wasting of our time. You allege Steve is on a personal attack, when it is you that is on that mission. How much of your baseless vague drivel do we have to put up with??????

 

Nope, don't twist my words, it is aimed directly and only to you. Nothing in your posts contains anything of value to the discussion. Baseless and vague accusations with absolutely nothing to back it up. That is what needs to stop, not necessarily this thread. If you discredit the "history", it might be useful to provide evidence as to why. Feel free to live in fantasy world where you can believe whatever you want, but don't expect a public forum to go along with that.

 

Thanks!

 

I apologize for my absence, but with shop full of cars along with compounding age and health related issues, it's bound to happen once in a while.

So, it appears some here have failed to pay enough attention and/or willing to search the origins for my lack of appreciation or respect of S.R.s so-called expertise & research*, let alone being impressed by his “evidence” or “100% facts”, so maybe it’s best I shed some light to my views about them, but mind you, this is just a part of it and please try to understand my concerns aren't or never were about the car or what it is or isn't, per se. Again, it makes no difference to me.

Many years ago, when this thread still had some resemblance to a civil(?) “debate”, I too was casually following it and eventually noticed a number of what I at the time considered/perceived flaws or inefficiencies, if you will, in presented “evidence/facts/proofs” by S.R. or at least found some of them rather questionable and decided to pursue further clarifications by preparing series of questions, which I planned to present and if needed, would follow-up with additional requests for clarifications.

Well, after posting a few initial ones and seeing all just going ignored/unanswered, I took it as a sign for lack of courtesy, courage or both and decided to remind others of it whenever an opportunity arose, but apparently made a mistake in thinking others had also noticed all these flaws & unanswered requests.
Kind of like some recent discussions regarding engine oil filters and cheered claims of certain brands having had single handedly "destroyed" numerous(?) vintage Ferrari engines. All I asked for was clarifications w/documented proof ...

I also suspected his lack of “courage” to provide expected clarifications stemming from a fear addressing any directly would invite more scrutiny to all of his presented “evidence/facts” and likely expose his expertise and research being far less than his (equally inexperienced ?) fans were cheering for.

And while I’m not a lawyer, I could easily see one with competent trial litigation experience being able to cast “reasonable doubt” over much of what S.R. likes to call “100% facts”.

*All his “research” has always seemed based on just reading & repeating what others have already published and AFAIK, anyone with enough (or too much ?) time on their hands could achieve same, regardless of the subject or whether they have any firsthand experience with it.

How many here would go to a dentist who has read all the books about dentistry & teeth but never actually practiced any of it ?
What about a mechanic who’s never rebuilt/repaired an engine, transmission or any other mechanical component but has read & is able to recite what others have written about such procedures ?
Or an accountant, gardener, investment advisor, pilot or a plumber, etc ?

That’s it from me folks, but stay tuned for another barrage of severe anxiety & high blood pressure fueled retorts from the dedicated S.R. fan club members.

 

Nope. The posts by everyone other than him are accurate it turns out.

 

The truth is very hard for you to swallow.


It has been shown over and over.

The front isnt 0846. (Proven)

The back isn't 0846. (Proven)

The car isn't 0846. (See above)

The chassis number 0846 was infact ADDED to the car by Jim g.

Jim refuted the claim and said he would come back with certifications and he never did.

The mystery has been solved without going into all the subjective lore. But when you go into all the lore... It just adds to the pile that the car isn't 0846.


The thread has been civil until your insistence that the car is real and that you can't prove anything with out touching the car... And then talking about it as a "trial" for some weird reason... While often being incredibly rude and condescending to everyone.

You say you come here for conversation and learning... But your actions speak otherwise.

I think plenty on here would love to have a conversation about the car. That's why the thread is so long. People have been fascinated with the car. It's been a fun topic to discuss. Unfortunately it brings out the worst in some people though.

 

More dribble for the enlightened......

Let's X-ray the chassis by its self. Naked.


That would be interesting......

Maybe only to me, but still I see the conclusiveness in that effort, with full consideration to Steve's efforts respectively.

 

What would expect to see in this X-ray. What do you think it would show you? I'm not speaking of a conclusion but what sort of information do you think an"X-ray" is going to show you

 

A metal analysis machine would work wonders.
A friend has one and showed me the exact metal composition of Peraluman.

Regards, Alberto