LaFerrari replacement: v12, no hybrid, less power than SF90stradale?

I don't see the Elva as a hypercar at all. For me hypercars are top of class in performance and design, and exceedingly rare. The SP3 is closer to 800hp than 900hp to be fair at 829hp. I absolutely love the SP3, it's one of my favorite cars to come out of Maranello recently, but for me, it doesn't meet hypercar status, and that's not a bad thing at all. I believe the SP3 gets slotted into hypercar due to its price tag more than anything. The SF90 has higher performance specs, and incorporates newer technology and still doesn't fall into the hypercar territory. The P1 was an innovation monster, top of class performance machine, so it slots into hypercar for me as was the LaFerrari. Your opinions may vary, and that's great, maybe I can learn different details or data points to adjust mine Regardless, they're beautiful machines and at the end of the day who cares what label they're given, admire them, and enjoy them in good health!

 

not sure why we are still debating this. We all have our own definitions. If you define “hypercar” as the car that represents the pinnacle of performance in each era then the 250 GTO, the F40, the Enzo, the LaF and the F250 are hypercars….So is the P1, 918, Valkyrie, AMG One and in my mind McLaren F1, the Zonda, the T50 which are not hybrids.

I focus mainly on Ferrari and for me a Ferrari hypercar is the best car Ferrari make at any point in time (usually a few years apart). Which means 250GTO, 288GTO, F40, F50, Enzo, LaF, F250. On that definition a car derived from those is a hypercar, hence the inclusion of the SP3…

There is no right or wrong, everybody is entitled to their opinion and we should respect that.




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Michelin just got it right in 2005 and that was the main reason that Ferrari's streak of championships ended. Up until 2005 though, Bridgestone had the better tyre (at least combined with the Ferrari chassis).

 

A Hypercar is a manufacturer’s Technological and Capabilities tour de force … this is the best of the best with every breakthrough innovation and performance they are capable of at that moment in time pushed to the max.

It is the manufacturer’s ultimate state of the art at that given time. It’s not a horsepower figure or derivation from a half decade old platform that determines.

This is why an Enzo is a Hypercar and the SP3 is not. A car derived from a 5 year old Hypercar, cannot, by definition, itself be considered a Hypercar, since it is impossible that it is state of the art 5 years later. That’s like saying today is like last week. Today is not last week.

The 3 McLaren models you cited are simply limited editions.

The last Hypercar McLaren produced was the P1. Thank you

 

Another nice one by
iliasabawi

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and a New one from Derek
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It looks like you can see the venturi tunnels in this picture?

 

Yes I highlight this in a photo about 4 weeks ago nice to see more of it

 

There are rumors that the F250 will not have an Aperta version, is that true?

 

It is planned an Aperta and an XX version

 

not true

 

From the latest shots , how does the F250 seem to compare in physical dimensions , compared to say the LaF? In the photos it seems to have a v low , wide stance but I wonder how that compares to the LaF…
Does the development of Hybrid technology mean that the position of the battery placement allows novel design architecture , such as even lower center of Gravity etc etc ?

 

Only coupe will be shown. This does not mean there will be no Aperta


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Nowadays for new models they have been unveiling the spider and the coupe at the same time so why do you think this will be different, because it is so special?


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Good to hear from you. I am sorry I don't have your answer on comparable times. That's because I didn't do back-to-back tests of fresh tires between the two. My testing/practice days were focused on improving my skills and capability. A lap time comparison with the identical car setup was used to determine that improvement. That couldn't happen with the Pirellis because of the appended detail below. It's what a testing day looked like.

It wasn't an issue of lap time for Michelins' choice. The problem was usable tire life, which affected my test day. The Pirellis came apart after 4 heat cycles (30-35 laps), while the Michelins lasted 36-40 laps. Pirelli's degradation was non-linear and sudden, with the tires throwing a lot of marbles, so it wasn't as kind as the Michelins in its breakdown. Much more detail below.

Hope you are well!


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My experience is through testing & practice. We tested mainly down at the Buttonwillow track in southern California. It's a dusty track with air temperatures in the 90s in the spring and fall and 100s in the summer.

I would typically do ~60 laps/day, with a range of 8-15 laps per session based on my exhaustion, car issues, etc. I would go through 1+ set of tires during the day, which means 2-3 sets of tires for the two days. I would usually start a new set of tires around lap 40 of the day.

My best times were almost always the last lap of the day, and that was true on other tracks as well. That was usually the result of learning, seat time, etc., from the whole day.

Laps 36-40 usually had slower times. At that point, the tires had little traction, and the car would move around. It was a great time to practice car control. Lemonade from lemons, they say. Setting a serious lap time for that first set of tires usually occurred for me around laps 30-35. That's because the tire still had decent traction, few marbles, and mostly, I had enough laps in the day to set better and better times. I would set progressively better and better times throughout the day.

After laps 36-40, I would need a new set of tires. Laps #2 - #4 on the new tires (roughly laps 42-44 of the day) would be the best times for me to set my best time. But I usually never did. I always almost set it around the last lap of lap 60 of the day. Those last five laps of the day were when I was the most dialed in and was in full send mode.

This was my experience with Michelins. The difference was not the ultimate lap time on the Michelins vs. the Pirellis. What was the real difference was the tire degradation. I could get 35-40 laps out of the Michelins, with linear degradation up until those last couple of laps.

The Pirellis just started coming apart around lap 30-35 of the day (the fourth heat cycle of the day). The degradation was sudden, with lots of marbles and blistering. The Pirellis just did not like heat cycling, especially at the hot Buttonwillow track.

Given that a day of testing/practice cost a minimum of $10K and a set of tires $2.8K, I just got way more laps out of the Michelins until the unusable level of degradation started around lap 40.

Also, please remember that these were testing/practice days. My focus was improving my skills, so the less downtime I had during the day (as well as the consumables cost), the better and more fun my day would be.

So, I am sorry I don't have an answer for you on comparable times. That's because I didn't do back-to-back tests of fresh tires between the two.

 

@gzachary I very much appreciate your detailed response. Always a pleasure discussing with you, sir! I am well, thank you for asking. I trust that everything is well with you too. All the best!!!

 

I was told… only coupe

Besides, when they did LaFerrari, it was the same. Coupe then Aperta

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Yup the Aperta was "not coming" with the LaFerrari, then it suddenly became a thing. I'm sure the same will happen with the successor.

 

I wonder how the the f250xx will be compared to the 499p

 

Unrestricted Ferrari 499P Modificata on Goodwood Hillclimb.
Turn up the volume for the sound! (For me it didn't make miracles anyway ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )

 

I have heard different things. For example structurally it would be difficult for it to be an Aperta. In five weeks we will learn a lot, but maybe not about whether there will be an Aperta.


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The notion that Ferrari didn't design the car for the Spider version is unthinkable. The platform is going to be milked bone dry spawning every conceivable variant. Coupe, Spider, XX. Maybe even an Icona-like sp3.
They didn't show a slight mercy to 499P which is a race car. They would have even made the SF-24 customer version if it was possible.

 

Last night I collected our brand new GT3 RS (a UK car). We also have a GT4 RS based in a European country with some good roads and quite a few poor ones. The point of this is that, unless the UK really is now so bad that it has fallen behind even the poorer European countries, despite the reputation of the GT4 RS being overly stiff, it isn’t. In fact when I picked it up I was really surprised by how great I thought it was. The GT3 RS on the other hand, has a reputation for being fairly manageable and with the added ability to slacken off the dampers for both bump and rebound, I thought this car would make for a decent road car as well as track car. No. In the UK it is hard work as a road car. I put the dampers in -4, -4, and still very very hard work. Much harder on my neck and back than the 992 GT3 we had previously. I know it will be brilliant on track, which is why we bought it, but I need to find a way to do 932 miles to run it in without incurring human physical damage first! (Any advice from 992 RS owners about which settings are the most comfortable on broken roads greatly welcomed.)

The point of this story on this thread, as you may have guessed, is that the explanation for such a firm ride is the incredible amount of downforces this car generates necessitating a firm suspension base from which to work properly. The F250 looks to generate a significant amount of aero too. This leads to a conundrum. From reading between the lines of the XX Stradale road tests and viewing the videos, the extra aero is not really compensated by an ultra stiff suspension. You can see that from the pitch under high speed braking on some of the track test videos and it was something testers commented on. Clearly, Ferrari didn’t want to compromise the car’s road manners in the pursuit of ultimate performance under high aero loads. But what path will the F250 take?

Much of the argument we have had lately on this thread has been about the V6 and its justification due to the current racing formats Ferrari compete in. Will F250, which should be the best Ferrari road car on the track, take the Porsche route? If so, I predict very few of these cars will do many road miles (even less than for LaF, for instance) and it is already unlikely they will do many track miles. Or will they come up with some ingenious way to provide properly stiff suspension in a ‘high downforce’ mode and relax things off enough for ‘road mode’. The irony here is that we have seen this before. The McLaren P1.

 

That is an excellent question and it will be fascinating to see how they have met this, and other, engineering and design challenges.


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As soon as the structure is rigid, which is the case, it is the anti-roll system (by stabilizer bar for Porsche), the rigidity of the shock absorbers and the suspension spring coils, as well as the angular bevels and the ground clearance that define the body movements.
As you know, Ferraris come out of the factory in neutral mode, that is to say at the average. You are free to adjust the ground clearance downwards and adjust the aligment accordingly. Look at the ground clearancet of a GT3RS and a Pista or a Speciale for example, and you ll have the answer. If you want less roll, you have to act on the ground clearance downwards, and go down to the minimum dimensions.
After that, you will never be able to get the stiffness of a racing spring on this type of product, because it becomes undrivable on the open road. I'll give you the example of the 355 Challenge that I know very well, when the road is uneven and bumpy, there is not enough travel and the springs are too stiff to absorb the irregularities of the asphalt. As a result, the car jumps and becomes dangerous when the asphalt is not smooth.
The best compromise in my opinion on a Ferrari road car is the F 50, it's almost perfect !
250 as LAF will always be a compromise, it's up to you to adjust it to your driving