2024 Italian GP: Post Race Analysis | FerrariChat

2024 Italian GP: Post Race Analysis

Discussion in 'F1' started by SS454, Sep 1, 2024.

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  1. SS454

    SS454 Formula 3

    Oct 28, 2021
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    One of the truly special tracks remaining in Formula 1, though it's unfortunate that passing is such a struggle at this track. While there was an element of what if throughout the race, there really wasn't a lot of action on track, not even from the mid field.

    Ferrari wins in Italy. There is something very very special when Ferrari win at Monza, especially from such a likeable guy like Charles Leclerc. It's very true that Ferrari had nothing to lose with attempting the one stop strategy, but give Charles all the credit for making his tires last. Also give credit to Ferrari for bringing an upgrade that actually works, and to Vasseur for prioritizing race pace. Even Carlos had a good result given their car was definitely not the fastest today. How can anyone not get goosebumps with a Ferrari driver on that incredible podium with all those tifosi below them? Incredible!

    McLaren continue to lose races when having a dominant car. Lando appears to be feeling this as he watches win after win slip away in a season that he genuinely has/had an opportunity to win the WDC. Once again he failed to lead the first lap after taking pole, then he burned through his tires. Oscar drove the better race. A brilliant aggressive but clean pass on his teammate in turn 4. Controlled the race but tire wear was still an issue. Unfair to blame their strategy team as 10 out of 10 teams make that same call in their position. It just didn't work out. With a car that fast, they should have controlled the pace better from the start.

    Mercedes were not really close to McLaren, but were on par with Ferrari. Hamilton drove another solid race but nothing extraordinary. George has quali pace, the grid positions, and good race pace, but he continues to make mistakes that are incredibly costly. A season he has looked much better than Hamilton, yet he loses points to Lewis once again.

    Red Bull have fallen to the 4th best team. They were nowhere this race. Verstappen in particular looked off his game. A terrible qualifying by his standards and couldn't do much in the race. His comments and body language suggest he is losing confidence in his team as well. Perez had an okay race, though a dangerous block on Russell nearly cost him. To go from 30 seconds ahead of everyone to 30 seconds behind in half a season is unheard of. There is something going on that us fans are not aware of.

    Williams got to test their post summer break upgrade and it proves to be a success. Albon up in the points. Yes he did do a 1 stop strat, but the car looks to be in a spot to challenge for points. Colapinto makes his F1 debut and drove a very satisfying race. 14 seconds off of Albon with very little seat time is a extremely positive already. Absolutely the right decision to get rid of Logan.

    Haas had a battle today. Kevin Magnussen had more adventures than anyone. The contact with Gasly easily could have been considered a racing incident. Context does matter in every situation. He was along side in the braking, though he did lock up and lose control. Contact was made, but zero damage and neither lost any significant time or track position. At worst that is a 5 second penalty with 0 penalty points. The fact they also gave him 2 points on his license which induces a race ban comes down to popularity. Had Lando, Lewis, Charles, or any fan favorite driver done the same things he has, they would barely have seen penalties at all. Hulkenberg got pushed around early, had to make an early front wing change, plus took out Tsunoda. He had a rough day as well but never recovered. It's too bad because the Haas looked pretty decent in race pace.

    Aston Martin just misses out on a point. Alonso feels they have the 7th best car now and he might be right. Another catastrophic failure by the Stroll led team. Lance Stroll has lost momentum as of late and not looked particularly good. It was strange to see AMR pit Lance late in the race for softs in what a appeared to be an attempt at fastest lap given they were so far out of the points. If this is true, why do they care about taking that point away from Max/RBR? Did Lance fail at his attempt? Did he back off when Lando was going for fastest lap? Not enough information at the moment, but it was odd.

    RB looked like they had a chance at points. Ricciardo had a scruffy race that gave him a penalty and then the team made a big mistake by touching the car during the pitstop and caused an extra 10 second penalty. Tsunoda got punted and forced to retire so who knows what he could have done.

    Alpine perhaps didn't have the best low downforce package and weren't that strong. Ocon ended up getting the better of Gasly but it meant nothing in the end.

    Sauber still the worst team and Bottas has completely obliterated Zhou this season. Quite a shocking demise Zhou, or perhaps a very impressive reassurance from Bottas. Too bad they are are dead last in pace.

    Driver of the Day: Charles Leclerc. Even before the strategy played out, Leclerc was in the mix with the much faster McLarens. The fact he had such good pace and kept the tires alive is incredible. Typically Leclerc needs to be in front to win a race, but not today. Might be the best win of his career.
     
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  2. ebobh15

    ebobh15 F1 Rookie
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    Thanks as always for the analysis, really good job week after week. Short off-road here about the trophy.

    I first thought it was the track outline, maybe with the different infield variants. Then I thought maybe it was Pirelli’s abstract version of their tire tread. Then it started to look like a bunch of brass knuckles welded together…I looked up the logic, and am even more puzzled.

    Pirelli commissioned an artist to create what they call VROOM, a “sculptural object which represents through abstract forms, the long history of the Pirelli type and the idea of velocity and acceleration”. According to Pirelli and the artist, it represents the car at the starting grid, the instant where they all launch (that particular and definite limit between the before and after, they say), and the moment of the decisive push to covey dynamism. As they write “the trophy becomes a sculptural structure and the driver on the podium is imagined by the artist a compositional element that is one with the trophy.”

    I’m sorry, I didn’t get any of that, and was wondering if others would pick up on them theme without their explanation (or even with it…). I’ve been to modern art museums around the world, can admit that I didn’t like or understand all of it, but with an explanation, could generally see what they were trying to do. This one, not so much.,
     
  3. JWeiss

    JWeiss F1 World Champ
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    Pirelli better at calendars than trophies, IMO.
     
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  4. JWeiss

    JWeiss F1 World Champ
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    We aren’t?
     
  5. SS454

    SS454 Formula 3

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    I think so. There are rumors of Red Bull being forced to remove or perhaps modify parts on the car that were perhaps borderline illegal. There is the brake system rule clarification. The Red Bull was a dominant car to begin the season. The top speed was the best, DRS worked great, extremely efficient downforce to drag ratio, fastest car with the amazing tire wear. The balance was good and Verstappen was a happy camper. Now the top speed advantage is gone, DRS is the same as others, the efficiency is much less than other cars, tire wear has become an issue, the balance is horrible and Verstappen is unhappy. There is enough facts that suggest something has gone on with Red Bull. A team like Red Bull is smart enough to know when and what changed and are very unlikely to change the car to become slower.

    I don't think it's simply a development race issue. If it is, again there is something strange going on. Up and down the grid we have heard the same statement that eventually the cars will converge to the same design and that big changes are less and less and that upgrades will mean tiny improvements in lap time. This is still important since it is a fact that 1 or 2 tenths can make a big difference within the mid field. Red Bull had a good half second advantage in race pace and Max could win by 30 seconds with ease if he wanted. That was this season. Within months despite the budget and resource restrictions, McLaren, Mercedes, and perhaps even Ferrari have closed that gap massively.

    McLaren and Mercedes both share the same PU. Williams does too and we have seen some mid season improvements from them. AMR also is Mercedes power but continue to drop, but they have a history of that. We know the PU's are locked from performance developments and only so many PU's can even be used. Mercedes show up with bubble on the nose that covers some sort of suspension trick and suddenly they have unlocked performance that has took them to be the best car at times. Mass dampers and Frick systems have been banned long ago yet we have seen nothing into that. Red Bull continue to complain about McLaren and Mercedes front wings. I'm not sure why, I don't see something illegal about them but I guess they do.

    As I said, we have seen an unprecedented change in performance with Red Bull and now the top 4 money making teams are now putting on a show which makes F1 fun to watch. It's kind of weird.
     
  6. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    RedBulls drop in performance(Max really)

    Nothing specific I have read. It's all a bunch of:

    1) RedBull is(was) cheating i.e. asymmetric braking.
    2) Newey is not that involved into the RB20 anymore.
    3) Staff have left RedBull.
    4) Max isn't so great after all.
    5) The FIA(Domenicali) have hindered RedBull from "walking away" in the WDC and WCC titles to keep the viewership and attendance up throughout the season.

    And on and on it goes with these hypotheticals.

    Nothing concrete especially from Horner.
     
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  7. JWeiss

    JWeiss F1 World Champ
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    The rumor is about RB needing to remove (or modify) something that is blatantly illegal, not “perhaps borderline.” The rule “clarification” was more of a recapitulation of a rule that has been perfectly clear all along. To be sure, the rumor may turn out to be false, but it seems to me the evidence grows with each race.

    And while the use of such a device can explain many of the performance hits RB - in particular Max - has suffered, I do agree the top speed and DRS thing seems to be separate and hard to understand. Unless they’ve tried to use aero to compensate for the understeer that has occurred with the rumored part removed.
     
  8. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Maybe in a few yrs Newey will re-release his book with an addendum telling us what happened this season;) Or maybe not, as his leaving could be an attempt on his part to deflect any blame/innuendo about his involvement in design issues that were found suspect.
     
  9. SS454

    SS454 Formula 3

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    I don't believe in any world does a brake trick equate to 6 tenth or more reduction in performance. McLaren had the 3rd pedal which did the same thing in 1998 and once it was gone they didn't lose much performance. No question it would be helpful, but assuming Red Bull had the device and were forced to remove it, I still think there was something else.

    Since the FIA have never officially penalized Red Bull, it's likely we may never know.
     
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  10. SS454

    SS454 Formula 3

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    Newey spilling secrets on all the ways he bent or broke the rules would be endlessly fascinating.
     
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  11. Kimi2007

    Kimi2007 Formula 3

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    It takes a season or two for staff departures to begin to effect a technical department, so I don't buy for a minute that Newey and Marshal leaving are behind Red Bull's slump. I also don't question Max's ability to muscle a car to the front if needed to make the difference.

    That leaves us with the cross braking. It just makes sense. Red Bull were likely using a system that they knew was not within the spirit of the rules, and when paddock speculation began that they were using such a system, they quietly removed it before any protest from another team could have them found out. I mean, the last thing Red Bull needs right now is to get caught blatantly cheating. They're imploding enough as it is.
     
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  12. Kimi2007

    Kimi2007 Formula 3

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    Such a system would be highly beneficial for tire conservation on long runs.

    IMHO, Red Bull probably took said braking system off, then screwed the pooch on how to compensate on their new development specs, and their previous setups have become useless - no baseline to work from. They look and act lost.

    Perfect storm coming together.
     
  13. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
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    He was very upfront in his book about looking for and exploiting every possible loophole in the regs, and not being ashamed when it was borderline.
     
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  14. USMCS6

    USMCS6 F1 Veteran
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    What I dont understand is now the two RBs have converged? No? I have to believe that they would have both have had the trick. Before the drop off, Max was always so much faster, now there are about even... Hmmm
     
  15. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ

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    I am sure that Perez could tell us if the 2 cars are the same or not.
     
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  16. George Vosburgh

    George Vosburgh F1 Rookie
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    That is one bone ugly trophy!
     
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  17. SS454

    SS454 Formula 3

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    I really need to read that book.
     
  18. SS454

    SS454 Formula 3

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    We may need more data. Apparently (and the data supports it), Max had a PU issue. On a track like Monza that can be major. In the end he did still finish 17 seconds ahead of his teammate, but we have seen much bigger gaps before.
     
  19. JWeiss

    JWeiss F1 World Champ
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    Well, one of the things being said about the system is that it helps control understeer in certain corners. This would materially benefit Max given that he prefers a car that rotates easily. And that’s exactly a balance characteristic that his teammates generally do not like.

    Hence, removal of the device would impact Max negatively and Perez probably neutrally or even positively.

    If there was a PU issue for Max, we’ll probably hear more definitively about it from the team, I would expect.
     
  20. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

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    My thought is that Ferrari have erred a bit too far on the side of tire longevity/race pace vs firing the tires up and getting a good single lap pace. However, they were able to use that to their strategic advantage by pitting charles early enough for everyone to think it was going to be a 2 stopper and then leaving them looking foolish when he didn't stop again. Given their race pace the last 2 races, and the ability for them to run in dirty air which seems almost unparalleled in the field, I think the car is mclarens equal, or close enough to it, that they can fight them like they did here the rest of the way through. I also think Charles is really getting the most out of the car after the break in a way I haven't seen before.

    Title or not, Monaco, Lemans and Monza in the same year is quite the achievement...
     
  21. moretti

    moretti Five Time F1 World Champ
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    It's a good read
     
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  22. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    IF RB had such a braking system, the moment they took it off they would be losing races by 30 odd seconds. This is not the case. The gap was reducing first relative to the competition, then they got overtaken, and now the gap is growing every race.

    If something was taken off, the drop off in performance would be huge, instantly.
    .
    It's already been declared that no such braking system has been on a car yet, the FIA closed the loophole before it could be used.

    They have taken a fundamentally wrong development path and got ever more lost in chasing the fix, with the rest of the competition having figured their cars out (especially Mclaren) and every upgrade just works. Red Bull is stuck with a similar to Mercedes concept (that they've abandoned) and are now suffering the same problems.

    Baku and Singapore coming. Red Bull will barely score points here, Mclaren should pounce. If RB can't fix their car by austin and have (Max) compete for the wins again, their championship is pretty much over for them. WCC already lost, their own fault for not getting rid of Perez. His extremely costly crashes further hams development as well.
     
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  23. DF1

    DF1 Three Time F1 World Champ

    That’s the game!
     
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  24. DF1

    DF1 Three Time F1 World Champ

    Red Bull trapped in “vicious circle” with RB20 problems
    Christian Horner says Red Bull's downturn in form is "100%" linked to balance issues with the RB20
     
  25. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ

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    For the unbias F1 follower that I am, this season turns to be ideal.
    So far, after 16 races, we had 7 different winners from 4 different teams.
    When was the last time we had that ? I cannot remember.
    The championship is still wide open, and there is no trace of dominance anymore.
    What is there not to like ? Maybe F1 has found its equilibrium.
    I hope it stays like that, not only for the end of this season, but for years to come.
    It's much more interesting when you cannot predict who will win, I find.
     
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