You and me both It depends on the type of alarm and who installed it. I guess one way would be to check the resistance between the ignition key (connector) and the starter motor (small connector) to see if there are any unusual resistances.
I thought I had found another possible solution, but it seems implausible. I remembered that the "Seat belt, brakes and door buzzer" module was in parallel with the starter (and ABS orange relay coil), but I can't see any way that module would activate the orange relay. @m.stojanovic Miro should be able to confirm this: https://www.dropbox.com/t/OBpSWti2rbNrL04o See splice 30014
A quick test here is, with the engine running, unplug the orange relay and plug it in again while feeling whether it clicks at the moment it is unplugged and then clicks again at the moment it is plugged in. It should not click in either case. If it clicks, that would be a good step towards finding the culprit. Then we can read the long thread we had about this issue (I cannot remember the title of it, but we should be able to find it).
Managed to find our earlier threads on the subject of ABS issues. However, I note that, at the time, I assumed that the ABS relays have standard pin arrangement (left on the picture). I do not know why, possibly I just assumed this as most relays have the standard pin arrangement and I never checked on my 348 (which I have sold and now unable to verify this). Image Unavailable, Please Login As the ABS relays have the pin arrangement as the one on the right, this should be kept in mind when reading the earlier threads (links below) wherever it was stated that "standard" car cube relays can be used. This would only be possible if the sockets for 30 and 86 are swapped. https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/abs-light-and-loss-of-brake-assist.569840/#post-145847081 https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/355-brake-pump-not-working-with-engine-running-any-ideas.653232/ https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/348-brake-warning-lights-on.215936/ https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/help-f355-abs-gremlins-one-for-the-electrical-gurus.621337/
Thank you! I’ll probably swap the sockets for 30 and 86 to see if that solves it with the new relay. But before trying that, I’ll also confirm the relay “clicks” when the car is running and I remove and replace it to confirm it’s functioning.
The orange (yellow) relay should not click when taken out and put back in again while the engine is running or when the ignition is "on" (engine not running). This relay is designed to click "on" only when the key is turned to "start" (crank the engine) and it clicks "off" when the key is released from the "start" position.
Just to clarify. It's the orange relay which should not click when removed with the engine running (or not running with the key on). As Miro says, the coil only energises when the ignition switch is turned to the START position. There are two ways the orange relay can cause issues: 1) if it gets a false start signal. If you get a click when the relay is pulled when the engine is running, the relay is getting a false start signal (or a random small voltage which may not turn the starter). 2) if the relay contacts are in a poor condition in the relaxed position. A continuity check across pins 30 and 87a will show that the contacts are ok, although I would subject the relay to vibration when doing the continuity check to simulate a car being driven. You can swap the pins on both the green and orange relays to allow the fitment of standard relays. I'm not sure about the black relay as it has unusual markings.
John, can you post another picture of the bottom side of your Black (ABS Pump) relay clearly showing the markings at the pins. As Ian mentioned, there seems to be some strange pin numbering (not like 85, 86, 30, 87) on the black relay shown on your not so clear picture in post #30. Alternatively, you can sketch the underside of the relay and write the markings you see at the pins. The picture of the 355 ABS Pump Relay (the Black Relay), p/n 131939, is shown on the Ricambi website as having the pin arrangement like the other two relays, i.e. pins 30 and 86 are swapped (in relation to the standard arrangement): Image Unavailable, Please Login like this: Image Unavailable, Please Login Is your black ABS relay original?
John, what you have shown on the 3rd picture at your post#30: Image Unavailable, Please Login =========> Image Unavailable, Please Login (with pins 87a, 87b 87c and 30). This is not a relay but the Diode Box. You should take a picture of the underside of the black relay without a white dot and post it. Just for your double-check, the positions of the Diode Box and the 3 relays should be as on this diagram: Image Unavailable, Please Login Can you also take a picture showing the current positions on you car of what the diagram shows and post it.
Confusing. The wiring diagrams show 4 pins for the diode box and 5 for the pump relay (with one pin unused), but indeed, the diode box has 5 pins. Image Unavailable, Please Login Here's a shot of the pump relay from Ricambi Image Unavailable, Please Login The diodes box should be next to the empty fuseholder.
The wiring diagram shows 4 pins for the pump relay (the Black relay): Image Unavailable, Please Login Black Relay: Image Unavailable, Please Login The Ricambi's black relay you have shown above is an equivalent to the orange (yellow) relay. It has 87a pin (middle) and no 87 pin. It is black probably because it is an aftermarket equivalent or actually for another car. Other cars also use relays with diodes for various functions, i.e. wherever protection of car electronics from switching spikes is needed. Or did Ferrari change the colour of the 355 ABS pump relay from orange (yellow) to black at some point? The orange (yellow) relay: Image Unavailable, Please Login The diode box has 5 pins but the pin 87d is not used (it is not shown on the diagram on the side of the box).
My mistake. The orange relay in the F355 wiring diagrams has an unused pin, but the 348 diagrams show it being used. Image Unavailable, Please Login
The pin 87 is also shown as unused on the 348 diagram, see my attachment above (relay 182, I call it "yellow"). You have correctly shown the same on your 348 ABS "gif" diagram.
I wrongly referred to "pump relay" which is originally black. I meant to say: "Or did Ferrari change the orange (yellow) 355 ABS relay to black colour at some point?"
My mistake again. I mentally rotated the image of the relay and assumed the far left pin was the equivalent. I need to buy stronger coffee Maybe we should include part numbers to avoid confusion. The pump relay is the most aft relay (except on RHD cars) with a part number of 131940. I can't say I've seen any photos of the 355 frunk with an orange or yellow pump relay. I'm trying to add all this info to my diagrams, but I don't understand the pin config on the pump relay. Don't all these relays have the same base numbering system? (not including the diodes box). The start cutout relay (orange) P/N 158091 has this base config, according to John's photo Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login The green relay P/N 158090 has this base config. Image Unavailable, Please Login The (usually) black pump relay P/N 131940 (shown as orange in the Ricambi photo) appears to have the same pin arrangement as John's orange start cutout relay P/N 158091, but that doesn't make sense. The start cutout relay should use the normally closed contact 87a. The pump relay should use the normally open contact, 87. (EDIT: Has Ricambi shown the wrong photo for P/N 131940?) Image Unavailable, Please Login
(EDIT) Ricambi show this photo for the pump relay (P/N : 131940)... a black relay. https://www.ricambiamerica.com/car-diagrams/ferrari/v6-v8/328-group/328-1988/anti-skid-system/131940-relay.html Image Unavailable, Please Login Not sure how Google led me to a photo of an orange relay earlier. But, as mentioned above, the pin config looks wrong. The NO contact should be used (87, not 87a)
Perhaps the issue is the catalogue I am using to get my part numbers. In all the photos I have of Teves relays, the sequence is (front to rear)... Diodes box, orange, green, black. Image Unavailable, Please Login Using the Eurospares catalogue: Image Unavailable, Please Login Item 58, diodes box, p/n 158092 Item 59, ABS electronic unit relay, p/n 158091 Item 60, ABS pump motor relay, p/n 158090 Item 61, System release relay, p/n 131940 This agrees with the WSM (348 and 355) AND the paper parts catalogue I have. Image Unavailable, Please Login Since all photos show item 60 ("A" in the graphic above) as the "pump relay", this would make the green relay the pump relay, not the black one. Here's another photo of the F355 relays: Image Unavailable, Please Login Another anomaly... All my photos show a pink (3amp) fuse, a red (10amp fuse) and a green (30 amp fuse) in that order. The wiring diagrams for the 348 and the 355 show a 3 amp and two 30 amp fuses. @Jpwulf John, what fuses do you have? The fuses are listed as protection for their respective relays. I can't imagine a 10 amp fuse surviving for very long if the green relay is the pump relay (as per the parts diagrams). Of course, these relays and fuses are probably modular and can be put in any order (wire length permitting). Miro, you may have already resolved these anomalies on your car in the past? Wire colours are probably the only way to resolve this issue.
The 348 photos, however, do show two green. (EDIT: and I did find one F355 photo with two green fuses) Image Unavailable, Please Login
Just to clarify the ABS relays and their part numbers, 348 & 355 (diagrams at Maranello provide good info and pictures). Cutout Relay, ORANGE (Black by Recambi), 87a Image Unavailable, Please Login Same by Ricambi: Image Unavailable, Please Login Main Relay, GREEN, 87 & 87a Image Unavailable, Please Login ....... Image Unavailable, Please Login Pump Relay, BLACK, 87 Image Unavailable, Please Login ....... Image Unavailable, Please Login Different part numbers for the Main (Green) and Pump (Black) relays appear to be only due to different relay mounting arrangements; functionally, they are identical.
Yes, but where (in the line of relays) is, say, relay P/N 158090 according to the Maranello website? https://www.ferrariparts.co.uk/diagram/ferrari/f355-b-gts-spider-mo-27/036-brake-system It's a trap for newbies (and not-so newbies) The Maranello website also says there are two green 30 amp fuses. Why are there folks with 10amp fuses?
Zoom the diagram a bit in so it is easier to put the cursor on the numbers pointing to the parts. Hover over the number and you will see this popup: Image Unavailable, Please Login Click on the number and you will go to this: Image Unavailable, Please Login Then, clicking on the red part number on the right will take you to this: Image Unavailable, Please Login So far, I have found the Maranello website best to get info on the parts. It also shows good picture (zoomable) for almost every part.
Yes, all diagrams I have seen show two 30A ABS fuses (and one 3A). The reason why some cars have one of the two fuses as 10A could be a recall/revision. The 30A fuse for the ABS pump is correct as the pump draws rather high current. The other 30A fuse supplies power to the ABS ECU, presumably for the ABS solenoid valves. Three of the ABS solenoids draw about 3.5 A each (delivery valves, I believe), the other three draw about 2.0 A each (return valves, I believe). There is also one main control valve solenoid for which I do not have the resistance (current draw). I see two possibilities why there are 10A fuses on some pictures: 1. Ferrari found that 30A is too high for the ABS solenoids and reduced it to 10A. However, this may not be logical - when ABS is activated for only one wheel, three valves are activated and their total current draw is 3.5A (delivery valve close) + 2.0A (return valve open) + say 2.0A (main valve close) = 7.5A. If ABS is simultaneously activated on one more front wheel, or on the rear wheels (one pair of valves for both wheels), then another 3.5 + 2.0 amps is added making the total draw 7.5A + 5.5A = 13A. This would blow a 10A fuse unless the ABS is never activated on more than one wheel at a time? 2. The owner(s) wrongly inserted a 10A fuse but never braked in a situation that would activate ABS on more than one wheel so the fuse is still waiting to be blown. ABS valve block: Image Unavailable, Please Login
Found my spare Main valve - 4.5 Ohm resistance meaning it draws 2.7 A. The revised scenario: When ABS is activated for only one wheel, three valves are activated and their total current draw is 3.5 A (delivery valve close) + 2.0 A (return valve open) + 2.7 A (main valve close) = 8.2 A. If ABS is simultaneously activated on one more front wheel, or on the rear wheels (one pair of valves for both wheels), then another 3.5 + 2.0 amps is added making the total draw 8.2 A + 5.5 A = 13.7 A.
According to the info I found, the 355s with Teves had an ABS on/off switch. John, does your car have this on/off switch and is it in good working condition?
RE fuses, perhaps they were thinking that in the more than one wheel case the valves operated with random timing, thus the fuse never saw valves operating simultaneously? Re Cars wit Teves ABS, my car (95US June production) has Teves but no on/off. I just did a search and according to what I found, all years had the potential for ABS on/off, but only on EURO cars came with the button. Guess it needs more research.
