The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Metallurgy would straighten a lot of this out. There is a possibility the result could end in more questions but llit would be a small chance of that happening.

All I know is this... If I was a very wealthy guy ... I bought a replica car for very cheap money and found out that it might be the real thing... And that my upside would be in excess of 10-20 million... I would have a metallurgy test performed. Because worst case.,. I would have the car I bought (an awesome replica) or I would have the real thing and it would be one of the best automotive "finds" in history as well as be the best financial investment of ones life.

I know I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

The funny thing is... I love the car and think it's a stunning car regardless

 

The next thing we are going to start hearing is that even if 1 bolt or washer can be traced to 0846 then it will make the whole car be 0846.

What part of all the evidence that the frame does not match 0846 is misunderstood?
What part of who is known to have fabricated this frame, and that is is not who did that work for the factory, is misunderstood?

 

I gather, and it does not take much to figure this one out.

Nobody will do a metallurgy exam on this car, so? That goes for X-ray, MRI, Cat Scan or Superman's vision.

Personally, I could not care less if it had been rebuilt from a SF. Cable Car.

Truly a moot point, and I keep falling into discussion like a fool. Fork it.

Regards, Alberto

 

We really are going round in circles. All a metallurgy test at BEST could prove is if the chassis metal has the same metal element composition as 0846, or not. If it is the same metal composition it does not prove it is actually the 0846 chassis. The age of the metal cannot be proven either. Of course if it has a different metal element composition then it rules it out. However, a metallurgy test is not needed in this case as you are missing that the tubes are different with different lengths with differing geometry which the period pictures of the real 0846 chassis in comparison to the Piper/Glickenhaus Cantelli built chassis prove. I already wrote about this in my post here.

This debate is not about if it's a great car or not. The unsound engine mountings aside, it most certainly is a great replicar. The debate is about whether or not the car is built from the remains of Ferrari chassis #0846. The evidence in the links here proves it is not.

 

No it's just that the "X-ray" won't tell you much that we haven't already seen. The car isn't "right" as it sits. So the X-ray won't tell you anything.

The metallurgy Might answer one question or it could open up more. If it's not the correct composition... Then it's out completely.

Also... Where are you going to take the samples from? The back which is clearly more modern and inaccurate? The front which is clearly wrong? Where do we get a good sample from?

And of course it's available for all of those tests to prove that it is 0846. The owner of the car doesn't want to do it or doesn't want to disclose the results of they have already had it done.

So... Here we are. An examination of countless historical photos matched with current photos shows that the car dp 003 is not constructed in the same manor as 0846.

I understand you may not care if it is a replica or not...but claiming something it isn't... Is a big deal in this vintage car world. It is not taken lightly especially by historians. Some of these people protect the "brand" more than Ferrari in many ways.

 

Justin, I know perfectly well about authenticity, yet specifically I could care less about this car.

My involvement here, is that one fatal day asked a perfectly innocent question about
whether this car had been "Classiche Certified".

Well f... me, I got called assorted names by someone that carries the torch. I am too old for that,
by someone who does not even know me, and insults me. A spot of politeness goes a long way.
It has been become the "Red Badge of Honor". PATHETIC.

A simple yes or a no, would have sufficed.

If I ask you if you are married, I do not require more than 2 choices.
Anything beyond that is unnecessary, redundant and pedantic .....

You know what? I am out of this abhorrent thread, until something along the lines of 'normalcy'
pop out again, but I seriously doubt it, as it is only about who is right and who is wrong.
There really is not anything to talk about this car anymore. So it's fake, so?
Besides, do you have access to the car? NO, right? thus all moot points about test this test that, age, real, plastic, metal, tubes, motor mounts. OK, you are all right. There, happy?

Go and visit JG, and tell him, not anyone else, as who bleeding cares? You? Well then have fun with all the authentic 'know it all'.

Please, no need to reply to this. Actually, just do not.

Regards, Alberto

PS. As there is not more to say about this car that has not been said, and I am really
going out on a limb on this, why doesn't someone very intelligent and bright,
write a book about it, or better yet, ask the fine people of F-chat if they want this lunacy to continue, go ahead, do a Poll.

PPS. This,"The evidence in the links here proves it is not", is worse than the Dewey Decimal system.
Dreary.....

 

Alberto I apologize for the way you were treated for asking a simple question if that is what happened. That would be an impolite unnecessary response especially if that is all that you asked.

Now on to the rest of your post... I don't need to be right. I don't need you to make me happy. It doesn't make me happy to say that the car is not authentic. The purpose of the thread and most people's research isn't to tear down Jim. It's to make sure that history is correct. The further we get away from the origins the harder it will be to prove one way or the other. It is very important that it gets discussed and vetted sooner than later.


You seem to take this much more personally than nessecary. People are examining the car. Some fly off on him because they don't like them sure. But really all that matters is the car.

As far as not responding to your post... Obviously I didn't listen... What can I say... You can call me the typical American and I'll take that badge.

Why doesn't someone write a book? Because... Well the story isn't interesting. Also if someone wrote a book they would get sued by Jim G more than likely based on his previous litigious nature.

The juice isn't worth the squeeze.

The value is in the car being authentic. Not writing a book about dp003.

Who the hell would buy it? What are you going to do sell 500 copies? Max.


And for the record a friend of mine has told him his car isn't authentic at a large car event... About 15-20 years ago. Jim has been told many times his car isn't authentic and he just kept pressing on that it was.

 

There is one thing I do not understand from the moderators of this thread:

why can ANYONE post some pictures of a chassis with a certain restamped (modern) stamp “0846” and put it in this vintage section?

mr JG has NOTHING REALLY NOTHING on documents or paperwork to back things up.
*Ferrari still owns the chassis number*
How can someone claim a chassis number and have a car registered in the USA as a Ferrari and listing it here in this thread. It is not a Ferrari.

20 years of discussion on a car that never was a Ferrari and never will be a Ferrari. mr JG left this forum long time ago and has never proven anything!

only ONE party could resurrect this car: Ferrari Spa for a works “replica”

FINITO

CASE CLOSED

Thread should be moved to replicas section. period.
Or measuring with double standards?

 

Speaking of replicas, Burago just did a pretty good body on their 1/24th diecast of #0846. They screwed the wheels up, but the body is pretty good. I placed wheels from an old Fujimi P4 Berlinetta kit in place of the Burago wheels. I also plan on doing the 1966 P3 version. Printed wheels placed to show how it will sit. They will both require work and new decals to make perfect models.





Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Just to clarify, Ferrari SpA could resurrect the number 0846 and make their own 1967 Daytona 24 Hours winning 330 P3/P4 "works replica." However, Ferrari SpA most certainly would not allocate Ferrari's own number 0846 to this car, the subject of this thread, the Glickenhaus/Piper/Cantelli/Allegretti P4 as a works replica, as it is simply not a product of Ferrari SpA, that does not match the specification of the real car.

 

At least this will be a product licensed by Ferrari, unlike the subject of this thread.

 

So this question was asked years ago. And... I think it's a good question.

At that time (many years ago) I had the following argument and I think it still stands today.

The thread should REMAIN in the vintage section because of it goes into the replica section... It will get lost and those doing research may never find it.

Replica is a section seldomly traveled on this site and I feel it is more beneficial for "history" for it to be on a more researched section.

Also it will prevent other posts asking about it in the vintage section.

The car for a very long time was touted as real and through some big names and articles and shows... This is sort of the only counter argument and the best counter argument to what what seemed to be a paid for PR campaign for the car.

Sun light is the best disinfectant.

That's my opinion. I'm not saying they listened to me... But... I think it's a good argument

 

Also, this thread is in the correct section because it was made to be about 0846 which was a real Ferrari.

The Glickenhaus car claims to be a real Ferrari, sure, and since Glickenhaus claimed it to be specifically 0846, and since the whole rabbit hole began due to this claim, then this thread is in the correct section even if the car is not what Glickenhaus claims it to be.

You'd have to remove the posts that have to do with the replica from the posts that have to do with the real car, and that would make a continuity mess.

Again, this thread generally lays dormant until people begin discussing this kind of thing which has nothing to do with the car. It's now a discussion about a discussion - there are no forum sections for that...."Other Off-Topic" maybe.....

 

It's an excellent point. There is a great amount of historical information about 0846.

I mean... There may not be a more scrutinized car from begining to end. From headlight to taillight. Kinda neat actually

 

See, even if one looks at just the comments/posts made since my previous one, it's obvious this thread keeps on delivering entertainment.
Some could even be funny if they weren't so pathetic and regurgitating same song and dance in thousands of posts before them.

Well, OK then, but thank you for proving few of my and S.R.s points about some contributors to this topic.

 

Your post history proves you are lying.

You've never been able to disprove a single fact or a single piece of evidence I've posted. Ever. That is the fact.

Yet you've never been able to identify a single bit of misinformation. Your posts continue to prove my due diligence and your malicious ineptitude.

 

You continually talk absolute and endless ********, and for years. I answered what specific questions you only ever came up with years ago, and that was after my asking you very many times what questions you had as you would never actually come up with any specific questions, just very vague negative innuendo. There was only constant negative drivel before and after. See my answers in this post linked and in the post below it.

 

If you have the facts on your side, pound the facts; if you have the law on your side, pound the law; if you have neither the facts nor the law, pound the table.

 

Yawn...

 

Please do not apologise on my behalf. He deserves everything he gets. This guy is just an insignificant PITA as far as this thread is concerned and will never contribute anything but drivel that he falsely thinks to himself is witty. He gets into the thick of sensitive subject threads such as this one, where at least some knowledge is required, but he knows absolutely nothing. He asked if the JG fake was Classiche Certified. What a stupid question to ask in this thread. Anyone who knew the slightest thing about this subject would know that it was not and never will be Classiche Certified and yet he had been posting nonsense post after post contributing nothing whatsoever yet he has the cheek to call this a thread about nothing.

 

TTR and miurasv have a history of going after each other in multiple threads resulting in prior moderation actions, and here they are again. They seem unable to learn.

TTR is given a 3 month thread ban. miurasv is given a 6 month thread ban and 3 month site ban, greater due to yet another personal attack after many prior thread and site bans for personal attacks.

It doesn't matter who thinks they're right nor how many their supporters are. Neither trolling nor personal attacks will be tolerated.

If they can't conduct a civil discussion, then they won't be allowed to post. They can either post with civility or put each other on ignore. Otherwise there will be continuing and increasing sanctions.

 

PS. I just read Yin's post, and regrets this turn of events, after posting my diatribe. I hope not to have offended anyone's sensibility with my post,
yet, I felt it was enough to be spanked as a child.

If I may, I feel that the 2 grown men in question have had a tenuous relation in public, as have I with one of them, in an unfairly and unjustified manner,
albeit, I have a tendency due to my abhorrent Latin upbringing, to step out of line, yet never with my friends and mentors.

I really could not give an opinion as what has caused this unfortunate turn of events, but if it is considered I must be reprimanded also, so be it.
I think I have expressed enough about this uncomfortable situation in previous posts, have received pm's about it, and am thankful for them.
Thank you.

Regards,
Alberto

 

Holy cow. This is getting so bad I’m thinking about seeing what’s going on in the F1 forum.

 

Check out Rock n' Stroll . . . The Stroller thread and Hamilton Deserves More Respect.

 

Alberto,

I can give you an answer on Classiche going back near 10 years ago. At that time Jess Pourret was one of the outside experts that Ferrari used for Classiche evaluations. He and I talked about the JG car. That he said "no, never" would be to put it way too mildly. The Car was well known to Classiche and the outside experts.