V-12 Engine into 308 Build, over on Grassroots

Worked late and a trip to the store meant it was getting dark and I had not interest in running the engine in the dark.
Pulled the plugs and over-all I'm happy. The colors say that on average its idling very near a lambda of 1.

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1,12 still looked pretty dry and I think 3,6, 7 were drier than previously so I think its almost there. I picked up another bottle of sealer because between the boil-over and running I've had to add at least 2 gallons so I've probably lost about 1/2 the sealer. Next run I'll add another 1/2 bottle.
The cylinder MAP fuel correction it over correcting. The cylinders with the lowest MAP are lean, the highest MAP rich...and looking at it I was vaguely remembering taking a short cut that applies the correction to the fuel pulse directly and thinking I know this is wrong but it should be fine. Looking at the data the fuel pulse is 2.2-2.3ms, the dead time is 1.16 so almost exactly 1/2 the pulse time is dead time and my correction it almost exactly double what it should be....I need to fix that because I'm not making it better, just the opposite the error the out of sync TBs create .
I'm a little confused about the idle MAP reading I'm seeing now compared to last run...never mind, as i was typing I realized what I did, its the way I edited the spark table. The numbers I typed are the same, 6 degrees but last time it was at 40kPA and 60kPa was 18. This time I cleverly decided to get rid of the 20 and 40 kPa row and just use a 50kPa so this time the timing is actually 6 deg, last time it was the interpolation between 6 and 18....so at 45 it was about 9 degrees. I'm not loving the change because at rpm goes up and I get out of the idle setting the timing goes up and the MAP down which is probably why its not feeling at snappy as it was last time.

 

Looking back, tonight was mostly wasted time. I did add more sealer and doe a heat cycle. I did type the wrong number into the throttle and get to hear it bouncing off the rev limiter which its nice to know works correctly, would have been even nicer to have the sound on video. I did drop the mouse in the shut it down panic, and that was the clacking I heard pulling out.

I decided to add a 0-100% MAP correction number, so a little change in the model...just as I got started Lana called and I thought something was wrong so I unplugged and went to see....it was nothing so back to work. The fuel we have is E10 so I had the wrong stoic and density numbers and I figured best to change it now before I'm very far into tuning. I also notice something wrong with the MAP 7 reading at key on, it was 92kPa when it should be 100, so I turned off the MAP trim I'd just worked on. I added row to the spark table to give myself more options and set idle timing to 8 this go.

Fired it up a few tweaks to get it idling okish, sealer in, cap ON. Let it warm up....the MAP screen is saying one thing but my eyes are saying the TBs are not all alike so I used a feeler gauge and my hear and it was sounding better and MAP was around 45-50. A little drive and cylinders wanting to miss...It was very lean form the stoic number change. Pulled it in and went to look at logs to tweak tables for tomorrow.

hmm....why is cylinder 1's injector pulse about 1/2 the others? Because its trim factor is 0 not 1 like it should be.....1+ 0*1.1 is some how 0? WTF is going on? I see the numbers, I see the equation and the answer is wrong? Best I can tell when I unplugged mid change I corrupted something and cylinder 1 injector was getting the deadtime pulse but no fuel pulse. I went back out and loaded the model from Sunday and reloaded all my new tuning, same issue. Reloaded the model from Sunday and the tuning from Sunday, problem solved so whatever is corrupt is in the tuning data... so I'll take some screen shots and rekey the new stuff it so I know I don't bring over any problems.

Also I didn't really give the #7 MAP issue the thought it deserved...the board outputs the lowest MAP reading as the Global value so WOT was 92kPa but the running reading seemed way more right.....hmmm. I had a plastic bag over it to protect the board but its not sealed...yup, the over heat last week got water in the bag and there is some corrosion and 6 doesn't look any better. hopefully when I clean it all be well, if not I MIGHT have another sensor or 2? All 12 need to be the same and I'm pretty sure the part I'm using has been replaced so lets not think about that.
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Tomorrow is pull plugs and clean plugs, key data, clean the MAP and maybe get another heat cycle if it hasn't gotten dark and MAP is working

 

Today was clean the plug...very black today so clearly I was going the wrong way after changing the stoic value...oops. And lots of variation with the MAP trim off and me messing with the sync by ear...another oops I guess. On a good note, 1, 3, 12 all dry, 6 & 7 just damp so I'm guessing 1 more run section and the heads will be sealed...hopefully

I rekeyed all the new timing mapping in. Did not rekey the bad tuning. Did rekey the MAP trim % function and its working correctly.

That bought me to the # 7 on the multiMAP issue. I did have 1 new MAP sensor!

Attachment:

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...and installing it made the problem worse. It ended up being corrosion in the board itself killed power to MAP 7 so for now I added a jumper and its fixed.

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....but long term I guess I need to be thinking about a new board. If anyone is interested in a multiMAP group buy/build let me know.

An aside a buddy txt'd asking if I want a set of 4:1 scale levers...yes?

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I'd never seen them but google brought me a pick from...GRM

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An amazon had a 400lb scale on lighting deal at $11 but the other 3 I had to pay full price so it ended up $58 for 4.

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I'll drive up and grab the levers Saturday so another $20-$30 in gas and find out what this car weighs this weekend....kind of curious....and that is no doubt encourage weight reduction efforts

 

Good day mk e,

If you can upload or PM some pics (or schematic) of your multi-map PCB (top and bottom side), I can see if I can help. Depending upon how much ground work you have done on this design, I can pretty quickly design up and get you a new board including assembly. The cost would just be my out of pocket costs and so a group buy would not be necessary. These days PCB fabrication is significantly cheaper than it used to be, along without the need for large PCB quantity minimums. In fact it is shocking at how automated and competitive PCB Fabrication is these days... easily 1/10 of what it was 10 years ago. On top of this many advanced PCB processes are virtually free even for "regular" PCB orders. It simply shocks me at how this industry has evolved and so quickly at that.

Cheers,

Sam

 

Sam, thank you so much, I'm just awful with boards and such. All the information is here:
https://github.com/jharvey/MultiMAP

I had a guy design it for me years ago and and many have asked where I got it but as far as I know I'm the only one who's ever built one. This has got to be 10 years old now and so no doubt components are obsolete. I'm pretty sure the MAP sensors themselves are on that list, as the 105kPKa were replaced with 110kPA, which is fine but different part number. I know the OpAmp on the main output doesn't work correctly, it chops the signal below, I forgot, 50kPA or 1.5-2V? so I by passed it. Also I had it designed so it can use the MAP plug from a normal MAP sensor (+5V, gnd, sgn) but this design needs about 6V to work so there is some circuitry to turn 5V into 10V and I'm remembering I got the main chip for that as a sample because you could only buy like 1000...I'm recalling it also has a provision to accept 12V and use a Zener whuic would be fine, I could change my wiring.

I see there are 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 cyl versions....they are identical except in length, the board was designed so you can literally just bandsaw it ti the number of cylinders you want. So my damaged 12 cyl board is a perfect 8cly board

Last Last it was never designed to output 12 separate MAP signals, I soldered on wires so I'm pulling 13 signals from it, the global MAP from the board's main output and 12 more for the cylinders that I need to do a bunch of processing to in the ECU, including comparing then to the global.

Wait, I lied, there is also a provision for a 13th MAP to be used as Baro. I didn't populate that because at the time I didn't fully understand how important a Baro signal is so I use a separate sensor. Because I didn't populate it I'm pretty sure its never been tested or checked very carefully.

I t turns out everything in my world is just way more complicated than it probably should be.

There is another place making something that works similar, but they only offer 2 or 4 cyl versions

http://efi.ttrignition.com/quadramap.html

 

Good day mk e,

Thanks for the info and the links. The site has the original design files along with the gerbers and so I should be able to extract the basic layout into my PCB toolset and can then make any changes you would want (within reason, as I do not have a lot of spare time these days). If the sensors are obsoleted and/or problematic and if you found some alternatives and/or specs then this would shave off a lot of design time/effort. The OP amp chopping can be addressed potentially with a different op amp and/or some slight design mods. I would need more details on the input signal to determine the exact reason. In many cases clipping occurs because the op amp and/or op amp circuit fails to accommodate the voltage range as seen by the input and so internally the op amp reaches its limit resulting in a clipped signal. The 10V generator is pretty generic these days, as it is simply a switched capacitor voltage doubler... and there are several IC manufacturers that make these devices. I would add some input voltage protection and filtering circuitry, as the way it is designed... any +12V noise will be seen by the sensors, op amp, etc which makes for noisy outputs... which could cause you a bit of grief. Adding a bit of protection circuitry is a good design measure so as to protect the board/sensors in case of some +12V supply oddity. There is a linear regular on board (12V to +5V) which has a large input voltage range and so my guess is the designer thought that would be enough. Speaking of which... how warm to the touch is the regulator when your board is in operation? I ask, as the linear regulator is great and simple, but horribly inefficient and given the in/out voltage differential (7V) the resulting thermal dissipation could be an issue... but it all depends upon the current being drawn.

As a next step, can you make a list of the changes you would want such as part changes, connector changes/additions, PCB size/shape, and any parts you think should or need to be changed? Also, since this design is tailored for you, the PCB size/shape can be anything you want and/or suits your mounting space, enclosure, etc. Although it was great that the original design allowed for scaling, but this came with trade offs which no longer need to be made... unless this is what you need for your project. Secondly, would there ever be a need/desire to measure the raw sensor outputs besides probing them with a multi-meter? I ask, as I could add an interface to allow you see and potentially log the sensor output values with say a laptop, etc. Technically this interface could even expose the raw sensor values via a CAN bus. Give it some thought and I can see what I can do.

Cheers,

Sam

 

Sam, why don't you shoot me an email

[email protected]

Of course I'll do any leg work hunting components and data sheets needed to save you time.

I have tried so hard to convince other 308 owners with ITB setup to try this one of these to no avail...it brakes my heart because this thing completely tames ITBs for the street and makes tuning them a lot easier.....so this seems like the 1 last try moment

 

I did some rework on the fuel map and got into the cylinder trim tables a bit trying to even out plug colors and they are not so bad after like 30-40 minutes sitting at idle. I play a bit more with that but in general I'm pretty happy.
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7 has been white all along and today I added 20% more fuel....still white so I'm thinking it just leaking so bad its steam cleaning itself but the sealer is really trying to work and was able to filled the plug gap
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Good day Mark,

Sure, sounds good. I will email you shortly so you have my contact details. As I said, anything that can be done to reduce the design efforts will allow me to produce the item faster given my time budget.

That said, once the core design has been migrated into a modern tool set, it is not that big of a deal to scale it. I find that they trying to make one design fit all possible use cases tends to really burden the design and increase the project's efforts. As I said, PCB fab setup costs are no where near they once were and so it is a no brainer to simply tailor a PCB/Design to suit. Because of this, I use PCBs for other applications besides electrical... mounting bases, covers, etc... where else can you get a CNC cut 2D part with silkscreening for a few $ a part (in low volumes no less)... done in a few days... and arriving at your door in less than a week? The caveat is that the material... which is FR4 which is Fibreglass.

Cheers,

Sam

 

I drove the 3 hours each way to pick up the scale levers and they came with a pair of used but still usable yokahama A052 295 tire...man they are wide. The 285 sumitomo's I have are about 10" of tread, these are closer to 12 so I'm REALLY glad I got a free pair to test fit so a big thank you to Aaron. He tried to talk me into taking the 315s he had but these already scare me.
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Weights (with at least 5 gal fuel)
Total 2970
Front 1228
Rear 1744
Right 1498
Left 1504

Now we know.
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Getting it sealed I idled it for 45 minutes....that's right it frikin sat there idling for 45 minutes and nothing broke!

https://youtube.com/shorts/I5ZZsmLp5aQ?si=zEMNrVk2a6I52dpy

but 7 is leaking badly. I pulled a sample of the coolant while it was still pretty hot and shot some onto the cold welding bench....it did nothing....so I hit it with a torch to see it react and the water boiled on and what was left was a little gick, not the white ceramic you need a sander to remove. I now believe this stuff is dead at 50 minutes. I was remembering needing to do multiple heat cycles so I tried to use the wayback machine site to find older instructions to see what changed but no luck. So I dug back though the forum to see what I said...yeah...this is not the sealer I used last time or ever, no idea why I thought it was.

Tomorrow I will go get the barsleak 1100 headgasket sealer that worked but needs at least 3 heat cycles and a well flushed system and hopefully get this think sealed.

 

The bars leaks stuff is a process....flush system, mix the bottle with 3 quarts warm water and directly into the radiator, fill system with water, run 10 or until the t'stat opens, sit until the cool enough to open the cap for a top up, run until operating temp then 15, cool 45, top up, run until operating then 20 at high idle, cool 1 hour, drain, sit with drains open 12-24 flush, refill. All the running is done, tomorrow I'll know....I'll probably fill it with water again tomorrow just in case I need to repeat.

 

What brand are your wheels, their sizes and tire sizes? They look fantastic! Perfect proportions in the wheel wells.

 

Wheels are my design, I had them made in China. !8x8, 18x10. tires are 225/40, 285/35/, but they are very close to stock OD so I suspect what you're seeing is that the car is lowered just over and inch, the frame sits just about exactly 4" off the ground.

 

No change with the new sealer.....I'll try 1 more time tonight. Shame because its running so nice. I changed the throttle control table to have a temperature axis to control idle so now it starts and holds idle nicely as it warms up.

I'm starting to suspect shimming the liners did a lot more harm than good and if I pulled the heads I'd find the liners that are leaking are back to 0 or negative deck height because there just isn't enough meat in the deck at the flange to hold them.....that's my guess anyway. but I'll sealer again before I call it and rethink the liner height design.

 

Changed my mind. I think there WAS a coolant leak but its fixed or mostly fixed and what I have now is oil. I have straight water in the coolant and I pulled the plugs hot to check them a couple hours ago, it can't still have water on it and the intake ports of the offending cylinder are very slippery. There has always been a touch of blue smoke, particularly from the front bank....like say cylinder 7.

This looks like oil.

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Now the question is from where exactly is if leaking? I did cut into the cam galley when I moved the intake ports.....

 

Hmmm those tiny cracks in aluminum spewing coolant or oil or both are really difficult to find. Hope it’s something obvious. I saw a 308 head with a tiny crack in the casting under the valve cover spewing a tiny amount of coolant. It was enough after a few hours to show up in the oil. Only found it by pressurizing it under water.

 

And remember my port welding to seal the water jacket I cut into didn't go so well on the 1st attempt.

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I made some plates to let me pressure test the water jacket to know I had it fixed and I remember thinking that maybe I should do the same thing for the oil side but no good solution came to mind and worst happens it burns a little oil.......

 

That is a lot of oil....from where exactly I wonder??
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Not a great pic, but for sure there is a hole in my weld

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It's pretty deep no way I'm welding it with the heads on, I'm thinking I'll grind it and pick an adhesive until the heads are off again

 

JB weld to the rescue.

 

I ordered H-450 Alumbond 6.5 oz Aluminum Putty Repair Kit to try...its expensive so it must be good

I'm also pondering adding a PCV setup to remove the 50-55kPA pressure differential, step 2 maybe.

The injectors are packed, hopefully I'll get them shipped today. They say 5-7 days plus shipping times so the plan is to have everything else ready when the injectors return.

 

Looking at the new tires there is quite a difference. Technically its 285 to 295 so 10mm wider and checking tirerack specs that looks true on section width....but tread width I'm going from 9.6" to 11". I just dropped them off for mounting so I'll find out tonight how wise this plan is.

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So the tires did not go as planned. The discount tire place told me they no longer mount used tires, too dangerous. I stopped by a small place I drive past and he tried, he got 1 but they are just too wide for his machine. But 1 is enough for a test fit....

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Clearly I was just being a big scaredy-cat and 315s would probably fit.....but they really want a wider wheel......what the?! the wheel company now has 10.5, 1,11.5 wide blanks....hmmmmmmm....any want a set of 18x8/18x10 wheels?

 

Its got the yokohama A052 200tw tires all around now replacing the 22 year old and rock hard sumitomo's. I'm told these like about 3-3.5deg camber to work right so kind of funny...I stopped at the small shop that helped yesterday, but they were closed and since these were new tires the big store would do them so I dropped them. When I picked them up the small store guy was there at the big store so I had to apologize but did talk to him about getting on his alignment machine and he was more than open to helping me out when the time comes. yay.
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I bought a replacement powersteering unit, it will be here in a few days and I can get that sorted, I REALLY miss the power working. But for now I'm out of things to delay myself from looking at the ports.

 

• I'm really struggling to get a decent shot....next time it's out in the sun maybe. Pulling into my drive way it's a hill and toy end up looking into the bottom-back or the car, and it just looks viscous with the new tires....that and the need to repair the fire damage.

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