360 problem child

360 problem child-----Ok now for the next problem. Windows now roll up and down only with the key on. Starter works when you turn the key. NOW only running on pass bank. Switched maf sensor, nothing. O2 sensor on drivers side is pretty much dead but no advance on that side either. Any ideas? 12 years of mostly trouble free driving!!!

 

More information required. How did you know the O2 sensor was dead? OBD2 scanner? No advance when you replaced the front/rear (?) O2 sensor? Is there a reason why you swapped the MAF? Codes?

From the owner's manual...

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There may be differences between spiders and coupes? Also, typically, Ferrari Window Control Systems may allow the windows to operate for a certain time period after you have removed your key.

 

Looking at the Modena (coupe) WSM, if the door is open, you can only control the window by keeping your finger on the button. You can't use the "automatic" function where the button is pushed for a short period then released, which makes the window run to its limit. And even when the door is closed, this automatic function only applies to the driver's window.

 

Well, teenagers normally cause a lot of problems for their parents, so what's new?

1. Windows now roll up and down only with the key on: I think Ian will set you on the right path.

2. Starter works when you turn the key: This is not a problem, is it?

3. NOW only running on pass bank: The correct response to this question from a man of few words is "Huh?"

4. Switched maf sensor, nothing: Also "Huh?"

5. O2 sensor on drivers side is pretty much dead but no advance on that side either: Really, please you need to provide more context and description for your multiple issues if you want to have some good advice.

 

I am sorry for the confusion, the window and starter are previous problems that are now solved thanks to your help. Swapped the MAF's just for the hell of it because they effect a lot of things. It happened before. Swapped the MAF and it followed the bad MAF. Can the O2 sensor effect the timing just on one side? The engine runs smooth but is lazy running on 4 cyl. It is definitely only running on the right bank. Could swap the ECU's but then I cause other problems.

 

One of your 2 banks, bank 2, is dead. I would not swap ECU just yet, there are other causes.

1. Check the relay controlling the power for that side ECU
2. See if you can connect an OBD2 scanner to the car and be able to see both ECUs.
3. Check for fuel pressure at the fuel injector rail on bank 2.

One of those tests will point you in the right direction.

O2 sensor dead, what does that mean? How did you test it?

 

When I say the O2 is dead I mean when I jack the throttle it does not move. Normally it would point to a bad sensor, but no spark advance points elsewhere. The timing even retards on the left bank. I bought a new scanner because it was posted that the new innova can display both banks at one time. This is not true. It will not even display both at separate times. It will only display one bank period! I have to use my old harbor freight scanner to see both banks but it is separate. If anyone knows of a DIY scanner that displays both at one time please post it.

 

I assume that "running on pass bank" means "the engine is only running on the passenger side bank of cylinders"; correct me if you meant something different.

A few questions to better understand your problem:
1) Do you know that it's only running on the passenger bank, or are assuming?
2) For what duration does in run on the passenger bank? A few minutes, more than 10 minutes?
3) Is the car parked/stored in a corrosive environment (i.e., high humidity; salt air) ?

 

I appreciate you making sure we are on the same page--Any idea which relay is the LS? I have not replaced any O2 sensors. I replaced them about 3 km ago.

1) Do you know that it's only running on the passenger bank, or are assuming?
If I put my hand over the rs MAF it will kill the engine. LS hardly any vacuum and not change.

2) For what duration does in run on the passenger bank? A few minutes, more than 10 minutes?
yes more than 10 minutes

3) Is the car parked/stored in a corrosive environment (i.e., high humidity; salt air) ?
mountains on west coast. 15% humidity
Do you think another ECU reset would be needed?

 

So the left ECU controls the right MAF and Throttle body. For the engine to run even on one side, you need 1) the Anti-theft system to be working, 2) both ECUs must be awake.

Your symptoms are pointing to the left side fuel pump not running.

1. Check fuel pressue on the left rail to confirm.
2. Check relay on left side fuel pump, or fuse. They are located behind the driver seat (US car)

 

Actually, I was trying to determine if an ECU experienced an intermittent ground fault, which could induce a reset. About 10 years ago, a 360 owner stated that his engine was running on one bank, however, the ECUs were actually resetting. Your answers to the questions don't support the idea of an unintentional ECU reset.

Mitchell Le's suggestion is a good idea to help you establish root cause.

 

I'm not sure what the ECU will do if cannot control the engine with the O2 sensors. It may switch to the throttle position sensor for engine control (open loop) as it does on the F355 (???) and use a different fuel map. But that would mean you would have to have two issues for the bank not to operate properly. No O2 control and no TPS.

Fuel pump control sequence:

When the key is turned on, key power is sent to the ECU to wake it up (Note it has live battery power already going to it). It then sends a signal to the Motronic Master relay (on the same side as the ECU). This sends power to a lot of the sensors required for engine operation. It also sends power to the coil of the fuel pump relay. The coil, however, still needs a ground. I believe this is supplied by the ECU when the engine reaches a certain rpm during cranking.

So, you need to make sure all the appropriate fuses and relays are ok behind the left hand seat.

Try swapping the left and right fuel pump relays (94 and 50 or whatever relay your panel decals say). If no change to the left/right bank operation...

1) Check for live battery voltage going to pin 3 of relay 94's socket (or whatever relay number is the LH fuel pump is). i.e. red probe on relay socket 3 and black probe on any good earth. Actually, as you have a jumper wire (from your starter problem), you can jump pins 3 & 5 without the key or ECU control. You should be able to hear the pump running with the jumper in place. Maybe you could check the pressure at this time? This also tells you that the fuel pump fuse is ok.

2) Once you have established that the pump runs and is providing pressure, you now have to look fuel pump relay control (which is done by the ECU). Remove jumper wire. Swap the left and right Master Motronic relays (93 and 55) and see if there is any change to bank operation.
If no change, then we have to look at the power and signals going to the coil of the LH pump relay. Before I go any further it's probably best to give me your test results.

 

2) Once you have established that the pump runs and is providing pressure, you now have to look fuel pump relay control (which is done by the ECU). Remove jumper wire. Swap the left and right Master Motronic relays (93 and 55) and see if there is any change to bank operation.
If no change, then we have to look at the power and signals going to the coil of the LH pump relay. Before I go any further it's probably best to give me your test results.[/QUOTE]
finally went and got my pressure tester. 50 lbs pressure LH side. I will swap 93 and 95. It was easier the first time this happened, bad MAF

 

Did you swap the fuel pump relays (94 & 50) and run the car?

You seem reluctant to check voltages (as with your starter issues). It can save you a lot of effort (and guessing on our part).

 

Also, I didn't quite understand the comments on your spark. You have spark on the left bank?

Experts... Is there a simple way to check bank operation without pulling the intake manifold to pieces? How fast does the exhaust manifold take to heat up on these cars?

 

Here's an overview of the relay circuits...

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If your Motronic Master Relay is working, you should get power to the LH bank coils and injectors (the ECU, of course, still needs to supply grounds to trigger these devices after the immobiliser has been turned off). If the Motronic Master Relay is working, you should also get power to the RH MAF (pin 2) via splice S122H and fuse 60. This may be an easy way of checking that the relay is working. The MAF plug is readily accessible. So is fuse 60. Do your fuses have little cutouts in them to allow checking with the fuse in-situ?
Anyway, if the relay swap doesn't transfer the fault, then you need to know if the relay sockets have power and if the ECU is sending grounds to the relay coils.

Summary:
Key power from relay 90 is sent to pin 1 of the Motronic Master and LH Fuel Pump relays (via splices S118H, fuse 63 and splice S76H). Key on required for this check.
Live battery volts are sent to pin 3 of the Motronic Master and LH Fuel Pump relays via fuse 62 and splice S121H. No key required for this check.
The coils of these relays are activated by grounds from the ECU (pins 31 and 30). The ground from pin 31 is only supplied when the key is on and the ECU is working properly. The ground from ECU pin 30 is provided when the starter cranks the engine (and, of course, if ECU is working properly).

The pump worked when you jumped the fuel pump relay, so you know you have live battery power at the relay (from fuse 62). This shows that the fuse is ok and the wiring from the relay to the pump is ok.

Of course, anything could be causing this issue.

 

Sorry I meant (93 and 55). I will digest all the info and get back to you. I did check all the fuses on the LS and they are all OK. It will be interesting when I get to the bottom of this. You have to understand I am the guy that people say to me "that never happens" Thanks again!!!

 

I have done a few of these mysteries. Here is what I would do.

1. While the engine is running on one bank, I check fuel pressure for the dead bank.
a) if no fuel pressure, I look for fuse and relay controlling the ECU and fuel pump. If they are bad, replace them.
b) if bad pressure (10-20 psi), replace fuel pump.

2. If good fuel pressure is found (40-50 psi), I check the temperature of the exhaust to see if there is any ignition in any cylinders.
a) if one cylinder is dead, I look for ignition coils and spark plugs. I check wiring and signal of the injectors using a scope. If there is no signal, I check for continuity back to the ECU. If there is continuity at the ECU, then the ECU is at fault.

3. If the entire bank is dead, I look for fault in RPM sensor, throttle body, MAF, and any other ignition controlling sensors for that bank. They need to see good power and ground with engine running. Check integrity of wiring and connectors.

4. If all outside the ECU checked out, and the fault is likely to be inside the ECU ...
a) I check for all power and ground signals to be present at the ECU connector. You need to pop the back of the ECU to probe the signals while the ECU is plugged in. There are multiple 12V and GRD to be supplied to the ECU with key on and key off. They all have to be there.
b) Unless you are a system developer with the proper CPU tools, you are now left with swapping out the ECU to check for its functionality.
c) Alternatively, you can swap ECU left to right to see if it moves. This option does something permanent to the virgin ECU, so weigh this option carefully.

I have found bad wiring harness with 355 and 360 when they are ~20 years old. The newest 360 is now at that age.

I also found that when the whole ECU is dead, reading its fault codes with a scanner often leads me down dead ends or wrong streets.

 

I will get back to it as soon as I can, thanks for all the ideas. I'm on the roof putting up solar panels right now. Would much rather work on the Ferrari

 

Nice schematic; can you state the source? It's been a while but I don't recall seeing color schematics in my copy of the 360 WSM.

 

He made it himself and provides to the members here free of charge. A really big contribution to the knowledge base.

 

Checking all fuses, especially visually, is just wasting time. If you can check fuse 60 with a voltmeter in-situ with the ignition on, it is checking 10 things at once. It checks things like power from the ignition and battery to the Motronic Master relay, relevant fuses, the signal from the ECU to the Motronic Master relay, the relay itself, all the wiring going to the relay and some of the wiring coming from it. It’s a pity the pump relay doesn’t have an equivalent fuse, but you can backprobe a certain plug behind the seat for voltage during cranking to see if everything associated with the fuel pump relay is operating (including the signals from the ECU to the relay and from the crank sensor to the ECU). 10 minutes work or less if you know what you’re doing. Then we can focus on the things Mitchell mentioned. You’ve swapped the MAF so that’s one less thing to worry about. Backprobing ECU plugs is a little tricky, but we may be able to come up with workarounds.

 

Now I have some info. I swapped the R and L motronic relays. No difference. I then swapped the LH motronic with the A/C relay. The motronic relay was warm. After checking my readings on the scanner, shut the engine off and touched the LH and I could not hold on to it as it was that hot. Something drawing too much current. The RH was warm.

First of all which side of the engine does the LH motronic control the FI ECU? And also I know that the ECU's function is not straightforward. The RH ECU was near the fire. It looks untouched but it was right where the fire was. Drawing too much current?

One more thing RS spark at idle 5 degrees 27@ 2500 TP 2.7
LS spark @ idle 11 27@2500 rpm. TP 3.1 Now for the weird thing. If I gently decelerate it goes back to 11. If a rapid decelerate goes to 3 but the 2500 is still 27degrees. If I shut the car off it goes back to 11 at idle then goes down after rapid decel.

 

OK, so the relay is confirmed good.

But it's the left bank which is ok. Are you sure it isn't the RH Motronic relay that is not warm enough? The right bank ECU has more items attached to it. I'm not saying the LH is also faulty. Does the relay have a plastic case? It would be strange if the plastic was so hot you couldn't hold it. Or did you just get left and right mixed up?

You'll have to ask the engine experts about the timing. I don't know if the timing changes if one bank is not running.

 

What fire?

Slow down, explain what is idle 11 27 ? What is TP 3.1 ?