360 F1 Transmission overhaul

I could be wrong, but I believe the synchros are no longer available. I have a 3-4 synchro and would be happy to send measurements if needed, but I'm not willing to sell it.

When I thought I had what I suspected were synchro issues which turned out to be F1 problems, a shop told me $10,000 and that it would take 50 hours to replace 2 synchros which seemed a little excessive to me.

Bleeding the actuator and conducting a self learn is a lot cheaper and easier to do.

What kind of problems are you experiencing?

 

I wouldn't think it would drop out of gear due to bad synchros. I would think at minimum you have something else going on, which could be causing the other problems. Unfortunately I don't feel I'm knowledgeable about diagnosing the F1 system enough to really give any solid answers as to what it could be. Perhaps @flash32 could chime in?

If it were me, after everything I went through with my car before converting it to manual, I would take it to somewhere with an SD or tool that can really get into the tcu and read a lot of the parameters to verify what is and isn't in spec and carry out a relearn while you are in there. The SD can carry out tests to verify everything is working. If it's an early car (pre 2003?) without an upgraded TCU, the cheaper scanners won't be able to read anything.

 

Syncros don't cause dropping out of gear like that. Internally the manual and F1 boxes are the same box and there has never been a reported case with a manual box where a worn syncro causes the car to drop out of gear into Neutral after driving in said gear for 30 minutes. Also if it skips first gear going to second gear, maybe it thinks the Up paddle was pressed twice, not once. Those two issues sound very much like a F1 issue.

Grinding from 2 to 1st, that could be syncro or that could be a clutch issue.

A failed heat exchanger does not cause syncro issues. It damages the differential if left long enough.

I suggest a capable mechanic to sort out the F1 shifter before you open up the gearbox.

 

I have rebuilt many 360 transmissions. A number of special tools are required. Few shops have them.
Syncros are a problem and some are NLA at the moment. They are sold in sets. 1-2, 3-4, 5-6 and R. Incorrect oils, oils not changed frequently enough and bad heat exchangers have been killing them.
Not all your symptoms are internal.

There is only one estimate for the repair that matters. The guys who are going to fix it. The estimates you get here are irrelevant and probably garbage.

I spent over 30 years in the Ferrari business in California. There are a few shops that can handle this and a lot that cannot but will probably try. Select carefully.

 

Absolutely agree with rifledriver. I build 5-6 a month. Lots are hospital jobs where people have been in there that shouldn’t have

 

Eddie- Welcome back. Had not seen you for a while.

 

Hi Terry! Yes it’s Been a while!

 

I had this same issue and it was the F1 Relay

 

Sounds like something to try before you go somewhere more expensive.

 

I would like to add some more background to the OP ( mike) first post and description of issue
I have been working with ( advising, consulting) Mike on and off since all his issues began with his F1 system - has to be over a year now
I diagnosed his issue with only be able to shift to 1,2 and r as the sensors which he had done at a shop near him - that solved that issue
From there ( not sure timing or mileage after that) he had excessive pump cycles - we determined that the accumulator and clutch solenoid needed to be replaced - he and a few helpers did that and a clutch bleed ( i was on phone guiding him) - we also did a cold relearn ( we change relay since old one had been taxed due to pump cycles as a precaution - Ferrari always recommends while fixing excessive pump cycles to change relay due to overuse
After that .. to try to address a gear grinding noise that he mentioned originally started from a coolant / gear oil heat exchanger failure (prior owner) i said try a different type of oil ( cheap try) - I have had good success with slightly bad syncros with Redline 75w90NS ( FYI - on a good car - I normally recommend Ravenol VSG) - i don't exactly know if that made a different - Mike please jump in
I was made aware that the gear shifts ( from 3 to 4 would sometimes miss and go to neutral when hot (not jump out of gear as stated above) - this can be attributed to a few things but given the history and the noise it all point to bad syncros
Before taking that leap ( $$$$) of a rebuilt trans etc - I propose the following in order ( easy to harder/ cost involved) - stopping at each step to check progress
1 - see if any errors are stored like P1741/42 - and look at data for sensors ( travel for engagement and selection as the problem is occurring)
2 - make sure pis is not too tight when hot - does car roll when hot, at what rpm does it start to engage etc
3 - try doing a relearn when hot (may make worse but can always do again when cold)
4- bleed actuator and do a another relearn
5 - and finally take a chance that the newer potentiometers are bad only under extreme heat (this has happen to me a few times .. i guess parts are not as good as they used to be) and replace. Do another relearn after putting back actuator .. ..if they are good you can always save for a spare.
6 - switch around a few of the solenoids ( shift to shift and engagement to engagement) and see what happens - I would look at common solenoids for gears in question
..if all that fails ..then you know the missed gear shifts are most likely due to a physical gearbox issue or actuator issue - now we are talking bigger money

In the number of years I have been working on the f1 systems - i have come across one or two of the same exact issue that drove me and owner crazy. He give in to converting it to a manual to try to eliminate the issue ....only to find out that his hand force could not shift when hot after conversion as well -- bot rebuilt trans and he is happy now

I think, not to throw money away, a step by step approach needs to be taken with accurate reporting of results and exact problem reporting

Mike I needed to jump in because I know you were looking for the silver bullet here and didn't want to spend money for no reason. I have been pretty much involved from the beginning and know slightly more about your specific car/issue than most. Most are good suggestions but given that the problem may have been described incorrectly ( jumping out of gear vs missed engagement) and that not much history was given .. it is almost impossible to get any good feedback

Please correct any facts I stated wrong so we can have everyone with the right facts and then maybe you can get better feedback....but I think my approach is a good one

Thanks

 

I have seen a number of cases where the bushings in the forks that slide on the shafts have gotten galled internally. When that fork is moved it tries to drag the shaft with it. That is trying to shift 2 gears at once which it cannot do. It has the effect of increasing shift effort and when bad enough, blocking shifter or actuator movement. It can be temp sensitive. I have run into so many of those bushings galling like that on 430, 360 and 355 I bought a reamer of the correct size and just run it through those bushing every time I come across one. The shaft is too hard to be effected and I have yet to see material transfer.