Manual lovers - how do you like the Ferrari DCTs?

Driven a few DCT cars (never owned one) and wow just incredible. But after 5 minutes the wow wore off, too good and just boring and put them in auto. But I do agree, over 500hp in purely a street car a manual starts to become a little out of place. My 430 manual has kept me happy for many years now. I'll also add any turbo car with a manual is rubbish, go DCT. Having to back off to change gears = LAG = horrible.

 

After a decade owning a 355 I knew I wanted a 458. One of my only concerns was moving to a "boring" paddle-shift DCT. That concern is gone. DCT is superior. And I loved rowing gears in the 355.

 

I agree. While I love my manual cars, DCT is brilliant and great to drive.

 

The most powerful manual car I have driven is my 575, with just over 500 horses. It’s an experience. I also love the 812, which has almost 300 more horses and is DCT. It’s brilliant.
They’re different experiences. I wouldn’t want a DCT 575 (at the time the choice was F1), and I’m not sure I’d want a manual 812 as you’d lose that agility of gear change.

the DCT is also a brilliant system. I prefer it subjectively to the equivalents in Lamborghinis and Porsches. More involving.

I often ask myself if I’d prefer a DCT 458 to my manual 430 or a DCT 812 to my manual 575. I think the answer is, most of the time, yes. I would drive my cars more if they were DCT. Manual Ferraris are a PITA in traffic.

But for that 10-20% of the time when it’s a perfect driving day, I would always take a manual. Drop me into the south of France with the choice of any Ferrari to drive to Tuscany over five days in summer, and I’d choose a manual one every time.

 

I know they are completely different cars, but to the extent you can how would you compare a gated 430 vs the 812?

 

The problem as I see it, As brilliant as the DCT gearbox is, it has cause all the exotics to feel the same. They all shift and feel almost identical now. Not only that, they are also starting too look very much alike.

They joy of exotic ownership was how different they were from each other, the separation from the normal everyday car was massive. Now? Not so much anymore.

With the DCT now appearing in the everyday cars, it seems exotics will have to go backwards to be different. The market needs to get back to being extreme. Exotics should put you to work. They should not be for everyone. They are not intimidating anymore. More and more are becoming expensive Toyotas.

 

New exotics have lost that loving feeling. If you romp on a Daytona's pedal, the reaction is direct and visceral. You instantly understand that if you do something stupid, there will be consequences. Not any more. You're right. They all drive the same, numb.

 

When disc brakes (and before that, hydraulic brakes) appeared in all cars, exotics did not go back to drum brakes (or cable brakes).
On the other hand, maybe the only thing that is now difficult to manage tends to be the achievable speed (not only in straight lines of course).
Driving a 296 or SF90 close to its limits (or even relatively far from) on a track requires some focus.

 

Sadly, you shouldn't be driving any of these cars close to their limits on the street. The fastest I have gone is about 160, and only for a short distance. I recall an Enzo that blew up after hitting a small bump.

Even more sadly, if you drive these cars below their limits on the street, they feel numb. The fun factor is gone.

 

You forgot the other 90% of the story...including the light pole.

 

Driving a mini van at the limit also requires some focus. Exotics cars are supposed to be engaging at all speeds. And should be engaging at legal speeds, not just in the triple digits. Let's face it, most of these car live their lives mostly below 100mph.

 

That’s why cars like 05 Ford GT or a 355 manual or 458 spider even a Gallardo and Performante are so brilliant. You get emotion and drama and feel at any speed esp below legal limits.

 

I’m not a fan of DCTs - actually I find them to be the worst of both worlds. As unengaging as a traditional torque converter auto with annoying DCT quirks and zero benefit (since I drive for enjoyment, not lap time - even at the track).

I do have one DCT (PDK) very reluctantly as a concession to my wife for a dual purpose car - we use our 992 C2S as a joint car and as a loaner for houseguests so automatic was required. But it totally ruins the car for me and I don’t enjoy driving it.

I know I am at the extreme end of the manual-only spectrum but that’s fine by me - in fact it saves me money since I have a tendency towards gotta-have-it-itis and ruling out huge swaths of the automotive landscape (eg any Ferrari of the past couple decades does nothing for me) keeps my spending under control.

Here are the current cars in the garage with one, previously mentioned, exception.

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The DCT should be used as a manual transmission IMHO; it's not because the electronics introduced (made possible by the electric command) allow it to run automatically that this feature has to be used. A DCT is a (dual) mechanical sequential gearbox.
A sequential gearbox is better than an H-pattern gearbox and is what is used on motorbikes and often on race cars; btw, on motorbikes with shifter, the clutch lever is not needed to change gears - it's similar (to some extent) to the vanishing of the clutch pedal in a DCT/PDK car and has nothing to do with automatic gearchanges.
A torque converter is totally different as it relies on inertia to decide when to change gears with a lot of slip and no driver action (although recent automatic gearboxes have used electronics to improve the behaviour).

 

What are the two BMWs?

 

1991 E34 M5 and 2000 E36/7 M Roadster

 

This would certainly be valid if the premise is that faster and easier is better: that the best car is the fastest, safest, most technical, easiest.

But we are not here for that, we are here for emotion.

I don't see anyone saying they get more joy or satisfaction out of drum brakes.

Some people get more emotion out of non assisted steering.

Some get more out of hydraulic assisted steering.

Many get more out of manual rather than paddle gearboxes.

For me, manuals can be brilliant on the right occasions, I would no longer have one for everyday.

I have had the privilege of driving a 296 and a SF90 on track at Goodwood and my g**, they were so fast and perfect. But the most fun cars were less fast and less perfect!

 

I understand my F12 will never have a half dozen dual-throated Webers like a proper 275GTB, but if there's a market to convert 360s to three pedal cars, couldn't someone help me convert mine?

 

I used to be a manuals are the best everyone else is lame guy until I got a car with DCT and tracked it. Tons of fun and tons of emotion. I daily a stick which I love so its the best of both worlds. We don't need to divide up into camps on this one.

 

We're saying a lot of the same things here. I agree with mostly with the pro-manual comments. I own three sports cars, all with manual transmissions, but all with low power relative to modern cars. I love old manual cars.

I think we have crossed a threshold with modern cars. Their power makes them rev so quickly, it feels obvious how much acceleration is lost trying to do a quick manual shift. The massive power requires a transmission that can do microsecond shifts as soon as the shift lights go full on. A manual transmission would no longer be fun.

I have driven a few modern Ferraris (458, 488 Pista, etc.). The DTCs are wonderful and appropriate for the power of these cars. And, as already mentioned, the DTC is great in stop-and-go traffic.

On the track, I would have no concern about a modern car deciding to shift gears mid-corner as the shifts are so smooth, the shift wouldn't upset the car unlike shifting a manual transmission mid-corner. Certainly, in a modern car, I would be going so fast, I would still have lots of other stuff to think about (braking!). It would be engaging but different.

 

A DCT would not decide to shift mid corner per say. The driver would do all the shifting. If you put a DCT in "auto" mode it shifts up to 7th about as fast as it can.

 

That is why the Ferrari DCT is one of the few that I don't mind. It will let you bounce off the rev limited and won't intervene. You can stomp on the throttle at 1500 RPM and it won't downshidt unless you tug on the paddle.

I had a PDK in a loaner once and it downshifted on me when I went to pass someone. I started at around 3k revs, so it wasn't like I was lugging the engine. That was all I needed to know. I will never own a car with a PDK unless they fix that.

 

I don't want a car that needs a DCT.

 

I share your love of manuals. Personally, I am willing to concede in some cases if I love everything else about a car. But, given the option, I will always pick a manual for a street car. I don't care if it's slower. I prefer to operate the machine myself.

I disagree, however, that DCTs and torque converters are equivalent. DCTs are best enjoyed in manual mode (I do not use auto in any circumstance). And in manual mode, the shifts are nearly instantaneous in a way that no slush box could ever approach. Not to mention the power lost from the torque converter slipping.

For me, a good DCT can be fun in the right car, even if I'd always prefer a manual. I do not feel that way about torque converters.

 

I get that, although I loved the PDK on the track. From a personal perspective, at 72, my track days are limited to parade laps. I don't want a sports car with one jillion horsepower. Why not? I'm a slut. If I have it, I'll use it and chances are the outcome will not be optimal. When I look at the current Ferrari lineup, there is not one car I would buy even if funds were unlimited. I realize Ferrari doesn't care about potential buyers like me. They only need to sell 15,000 cars a year. Ferrari will not lose a minute of sleep worrying about the geezer market.