Ferrari F80

Seems like there will never be agreement on fchat but that’s what makes it interesting! In the end, if we stay around long enough, we’ll get to see. I would definitely advise Ferrari, if it were my job to do that, to, at all costs, not ignore changing consumer tastes. They have been at the head of a very difficult segment of the car industry - one notorious for horrific casualties. And the genius of LDM was that he shook Ferrari out of their traditional direction and put them on a new one. But like anything new, there comes a time when it too is old. A time for yet another new direction. Is what they are doing right? We can all agree or disagree, but this is a simple test. We will know how well they do by the sales they make. There is only one car company that has been able to remain in business with a ‘stand still’ strategy. Morgan. And it has been oh so difficult for them. I would not advise that strategy for Ferrari, nor would they accept it if I did. The logic is too obviously flawed for them. They are a market leader. They have to keep moving forward, reinventing, changing. And they have to find a way to accommodate what the regulators want in that process. And by the way, many younger customers are not unhappy with the regulations - both for CO2 and noise. This is a fine balance; working out what technologies to invest in and adopt for the future, taking account of what things influence customer tastes and preferences. It’s very easy to mock ‘Microsoft and Apple’ staff, but do you really know if that is the right reaction yet? Only time will tell that. All that can be said is that many traditional customers do not like the new direction. I could accept that as fact, although many that I talk to are not half as vocal as what I read on this forum. But nevertheless, the feeling is certainly there. Whether the ‘traditionalists’ are right or not we cannot know yet. It is certainly true that many people over the years have been critical of past changes, changes that are now often quoted as brilliant. The negative voices must at least accept the possibility we could be in that same story once more. Or if not, at least that Ferrari is doing what it thinks it must to remain relevant and profitable (since the two are closely linked). Remember, there were many who left the brand at the 458 because it was not old-school-Ferrari enough. Now there are more who cite it as the greatest V8 ever produced.

Having been around a bit, I can’t help but for my first instinct to be cynical when I hear “new is terrible, old better’. I can’t think of a new model when that hasn’t happened. My more positive stance may not be right but it’s also not automatically wrong.

And by the way, I do think the F80 has a chance of performing poorly in financial terms. That doesn’t necessarily mean that they got the direction wrong, simply that they wanted to take more out of the pricing than they have done previously. I get it (even if I don’t like it). LaFerrari is over 3x the original price a mere 10 years later. Have they gone too far? I think so. It adds quite a lot of extra risk/cost to your best customers. And that may not prove to be a good idea in the end. But as usual, when someone falls off the train, another will step up. Or so they hope.

 

Down low the front view looks great. Looked at from a higher angle is less flattering to my eyes. All round I would say the F80 is quite the looker.

 

Fun fact I noticed on future financial performance/price of F80 too high: since launch LaF has almost 3x in value. Same as the SP500 over the same time period. So seems fair the price of the new car is 3x, it's as "heavy" on customers today as it was 10 years ago, if they kept their money in SP500. And I'm sure most of them did better than that...

 

I grew up on Saxo VTS's / Lupo Gti's and such after I passed my test and paid stupid amounts of insurance to have them as my first cars and I think this has had a life long impact on how I think a car should be, as light as possible etc

I daily an EV and have had a few and tbh I've not driven any of them which have been able to hide their weight

 

this is how F80 should look like

 

Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

I’ve also driven a number (and semi-daily) an EV and kind of agree with you. Although some can feel pretty good and they all feel lively in terms of torque. However, it’s not impossible to envisage a car that handles well enough to feel like a hot hatch and has the power, acceleration and packaging needed. It won’t be like those wonderful 205 GTIs but as a 21st century version, with 21st century safety, convenience and reliability, aimed at today’s younger generation and boasting a ton more performance (even with around 1.8-2 tonne weight), you could have an entertaining car that looks sharp and works for everyday use. Many manufacturers will be able to make these great fun.

The new Renault 5 is heading in that direction and maybe a decent example. £25k, 248 mile range, looks super cool, low centre of gravity (aids handling), 150 bhp, 0-60 in 7.9s. Golf GTIs were slower than that in their heyday. With modern tyres and suspension, this car could be pretty good. If not, there’s the Alpine A290, based off the R5. It has 220hp, 0-60 in 6.4s and all the showroom “come and get me” that you need. Both cars should do pretty well. The key is that they have to feel fun against other cars that the younger generation could buy. The 6.4s bit is going to help without a doubt. The 1.1 tonne petrol hot hatches we used to drive were never that fast - the 205 GTI was in the 9’s.

I know what 21 year old me would have thought about owning one of these. I would be smiling from ear to ear!

 

I read a lot of interesting things here: but I still prefer the F80 shape over the LaFerrari one, who also has the most silly Ferrari name ever made, forced by LCDM himself.

LCDM threw tons of sh@t over the 348, a car who finally erased the 14 years old 328 dinasty, good looking, but obsolete.

I like the F80, a lot. Does It cost too much? And the SP1/SP2, a 300 K 812 SF without the accessories, were cheap at 1,8 M? where does come from the extra 1,5 M cost, six times the 812SF cost?

Ciao

 

Interesting and probably fair point. SP3 still seems fabulous but there’s no denying the extra tech and effort made for the F80. To criticise the F80 as a cheap money grab and give the SP3 a pass is a bit myopic it has to be said.

 

But in the case of the 812-SP1-SP2 and the LaFerrari Aperta-SP3, we are talking about V12s in very exotic packages. So the price ends up being justified by the charisma, exclusivity and emotion factor. A Monza SP1/2 or an SP3 will be very desirable in, say, 20 years, as much or even more than today. These are timeless pieces, and this makes a huge difference in the value.

The F80, on the other hand, has a V6 derived from an "entry-level" car, an engine that for many could not even be present in the brand. So there is exclusivity, performance numbers, but for many the charisma, emotion and pedigree do not exist in this car. How desirable will the F80 be in 20 years? When its numbers and technology are no longer cutting-edge.

 

That’s talking about price, not cost. Cost to develop the F80 compared to SP3 would be huge. Which means it isn’t necessarily true that Ferrari went ‘cheap’ on the F80. Actual engine build cost is a small part of the overall cost. Ferrari developed a brand new hybrid system to mate to the V6, which is not the same spec - or even close to it - as the 296. F80 engine produces 900hp, 296 has circa 660. Big difference, achieved through a lot of race technology and has more to do with 499 than 296. The hybrid system is far more powerful and well-thought-through than than the LaFerrari. I don’t believe the F80 will be dismissed in the future.

 

The sound of the F80's combustion engine is mediocre for any Ferrarista. In addition to the V6 twin turbo combustion engine the car has 9 more electric motors and it’s not even an EV. In terms of sound, the La Ferrari's v12 is in a completely different league to the F80 and IMO engine sound degradation is one of Ferrari's most notable setbacks in this hypercar that costs several millions.

 

You don't think Ferrari should transfer their huge technology investments in racing to their road cars? I think they don't do it enough..

 

Are you saying that the engine can’t produce great sound or are you saying that the exhaust system and other components is what is affecting the sound the most?

Or perhaps no matter what engine it is, EU regulatory emissions limitations and EU sound limitations are the biggest issue? Having owned or owning most F engine configs of the last 30 years, I say it’s the significantly tightened regulations. Lucky for them, some small manufacturers are exempted for making “loud” cars. Everyone else has to abide by the regulations.

A V12 will have the same sound volume regulation that a V6 will. This is the main issue. Even if the argument that a hybrid TTV6 engine has less sound volume than a V12 engine is true, they are both still louder than the 2026 sound regulation. And I think that the first F80 is a 2026 model year. This is just the engine alone, with a straight pipe comparison for engines.

That is the problem as both engine sounds will get clipped down to the same new legal level. Will be true for all manufacturers selling into the EU like Porsche, Lambo, McLaren, etc.

 

Maybe this will help clarify things for you. With speakers on, watch these.

Part 1, F1 2010:



Part 2, F1 today:



Questions?

 

"Seems like there will never be agreement on fchat but that’s what makes it interesting!"

Well said, hasn't changed in years but that's the spice

 

I have worked within F1 for a long time! What's your point? The sound?

 

Yes, I would imagine so. Pretty compelling point too, if you ask me.

There are a lot of things I don't like about modern Formula 1. DRS, paved runoff, stadium-style tracks, fuel limits, the ugly halo. But all would be forgiven if they still sounded like the first clip. It never failed to give me goose bumps hearing those cars approach. Since 2013, that magic had been gone.

I went nearly 25yrs without missing a race or qualifying session. Now, I rarely tune in.

 

This is exactly the point. V6, V8 or V12 is not about the volume, only the sound quality. In my view it ranks in this order….V12, V6, V8. Almost all V8s (and we have many) are gruff and baritone-sounding, wonderful in their way but not silky like a 6 or 12. 12s and 6s are both highly sonorous engines. Clearly a12 is more so, no argument about that. It’s therefore hard to criticise Ferrari for the volume the F80 produces, I think they would have more if they could but, y’ know, regulations.

Most people are judging its noise by the rain-soaked fly-bys at Finali Mondial. That is not particularly objective, especially through an iPhone on YouTube! The rain will have a dampening effect. Other cars were still nicely audible, for example the XXs and the 499s. But let’s face it, they are race cars that don’t have to meet road noise regulations. We know the F80 will quieter than what has gone before because of regulations. Main thing for me is does it sound good to the driver and is the sound, such as it is, a good sound. Absolutely no point in complaining about the amount of the noise - it is what it is. Alternative, make F80 track only. Don’t think anyone really wants that.

 

I'm from a generation in which, from a very young age, we learned to distinguish car brands and models by the sound of the engine. All we had to do was hear the sound of a car from afar and before we even saw it we were already making guesses about which one it would be. I still remember the fantastic sound of the first Ferrari I heard when I was around twelve years old.
That said, for me the sound of the engine is simply what I hear and has nothing to do with what affects or conditions it. It is with this logic that I consider that the F80's sound is mediocre and that the LaFerrari's is far superior and in a league of its own.

Having you owned or owning most F engine configs of the last 30 years I think you will agree that the sound of the engine has always been one of the most iconic features of a Ferrari. For mostly legal and bureaucratic reasons, the sound quality of Ferraris and other sports cars has been degrading over time until we reach the current situation in which the F80 sounds like it isn't even there while blazing on the track at 218MPH.

 

100%, though it has to be loud enough to make you feel enveloped. Of course, "loud enough" will mean different things to different people.

I'd insert V10 after V12. And inline 6 is right there with them.*

V8 depends heavily on crank configuration and revs. I think the flat plane Ferraris sound pretty great, at least before the advent of turbos. The cross plane AMG / muscle car sound never appealed to me personally.

I generally think V6s sound pretty awful, including (especially?) this generation of F1 cars. However, the 296 genuinely sounds good. I'm not sure how they pulled that off. I can think of a handful of other V6s I like. But not many...

---

* V12 and I6 are the only two without primary or secondary imbalances. The only real difference between them from an acoustic perspective is V12s fire twice as many times per revolution. I6 is a better configuration than a V6 theoretically, until you get into packaging concerns, where the V6 shines.

 

Put it this way: if I don't like the song, I turn it off. But if I love the song, I usually want to turn it up.

So in that sense, sound quality matters most. But volume matters too.

(And I certainly wouldn't buy a radio that only plays songs I don't like.)

 

In the case of Formula 1 engines, V10 has the edge over V12 for glorious sound. They are both heavenly, just that V10 is a bit more so. Having spent plenty of time around both V12 and V10 engines, I distinctly prefer the latter. People have tried to reason this scientifically:

https://youtu.be/IY7GGiV8fKM

 

Regarding sound, one aspect that I find interesting is the kind of "acoustic pressure" that a V8 or larger engine produces, in parallel with the sound itself.

I think this is missing in the V6, possibly because it is a smaller engine.

 

The V12 sounds even more shrieking for a certain RPM level (i.e the 1995 Ferrari 412, the last V12 engine in F1):

.

The evolution of engine technology made the V10s rev higher, which helps, but still with a milder/different shriek and let us not even get into exhaust layouts... Other than that, it is a matter of personal preference.