Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Hello All, Long time member and poster - I am ready to share my plans for my project where I will be doing a engine and transmission swap in my GT4, lovingly known as Bambina (CDL BMBINA on CA blue plates). Short intro to me and Bambina - I am life long TIFOSI. I bleed red... Ok so does everyone else. This was my Dad's car. He brought me home from being born in from the hospital in this car. He passed 14 years ago and gave her to me a couple years before. I had a choice of this or his Elise - he said, "one car will be easy and you just have to drive, the other will be filled with expensive challenges and you will have to learn how to take care of her or make enough to pay someone, but you can't just off her to someone else. I wasn't really a choice - she's a family member and so many stories I will share that made me. I have an extensive history with red cars from my youth from our 206sp to many classics like 250 Cal Spyder swb and 275 4cam. I was raised when these had fans but were treated as older cars and used. I will share some old stories in the future. However, this is the car, as many pretty things and wealth came and went, parental divorces, my divorces, that is the constant. I thought about other options for increasing power - again more postings to come - so much I researched. This came to me as the most effective option. Restomod - I have rules that I feel make it still a "ferrari" but obviously modified. I am trying to stick to the spirit of my rules by creating something. that makes people question their knowlege when they make a surface look at the car after it is done. I am approaching the entire project, which includes the drivetrain and body mods as, "what if the factory built this?" or "what would Gandini have done if he didn't have regulatory constraints?". I want to make this one of the prettiest 308gt4's on the planet and change everyone's mind who ever said "oh those are the ugly, unwanted or not real ferrari". I will not betray the shield but this is not 100% ferrari parts. I know i may upset folks. This is my car. There is no selling. I have been offered good money and turned it down. I firmly believe this is my forever car and my one car to do it all. Also- thank you to everyone here on fchat, @Ferraripilot @Rifledriver @smg2 @mk e @M.Burroughs and especially @yelcab for setting me off on this journey. I know I am forgetting a few but I love this forum and everyone that contributes. There are no stupid questions - you just didn't search the history right!!! I will be posting crappy videos on youtube.
Sounds great .Hope it all works out . I had a 360 F1 and now a GT4 Dino . Wanted to move away from electrotwackery back to “ simple as wheel barrow “ carb tech .You are going the other way . But as you say , it’s the only way to break through a Hp glass ceiling with the 3#8 motor . The physical dims of the longitudinal 360 + gearbox compared to the transverse 3#8 package of gbox + motor ? Have you measured the distance between the drive shaft ( assuming @ near 90 degrees ) and the bulkhead of the GT4 ? The 360 was a big car physically , wider at the rear - dictated by the engine and everything thus wrapped around . You did say you “might have to go into the passenger compartment “ ……? Custom fuel tanks fabrication to fit back and extra structural enhancement if you cut through the bulk head ? Cooling In terms of theres no such thing as free lunch - so the added 250 Hp on top of the std 3#8 Hp = bigger cooling capacity upfront? - larger dia pipage and bigger rad etc .
GT4 is a great car and I have considered building a highly modified one for myself. My one reservation is the massive chassis and body modifications that are required to install an inline engine/trans like the 360. It will require sectioning the car between the doors and wheel wells and stretching it. No other way to make it fit.
Exactamundo. I can't quite wrap my head around this right now but perhaps there's something @sltillim knows about the drivetrain measurements we don't.
Even if you chose to cut a hole and let the transaxle hang out the back the distance from the front crank pulley to the output shafts is a deal killer. It is part and parcel why the GTO is longer than a 308. "THE" major structural component is the cross member the front crank pulley nestles behind. Cannot change that without compromising the structure of the entire car. That is immovable so you have to measure from there to the rear axle centerline and that defines how long the power unit can be from crank pulley to output shaft..
I remember Spencer asking for measurement a year ago. So I think he has worked it out. And Spencer, you do not look like the boy I met 20 years ago in San Carlos anymore. Come to think of it, I don't look like I did 20 years ago. What a great project.
I did "rough" measurements before pulling the trigger on the engine trans. AND I do want to accomplish this without cutting the frame rails but some frame surgery is definitely needed, regardless. There are a couple of key measurements here - length, width, height. Let's look at all three in short before my long post. Length - This is actually the easiest. The GT4 has a longer wheelbase than the GTB and GTS by roughly 8 inches. A GT4 chassis is almost like a GTO chassis! It is a very cab forward car, regardless of the "rear seats" and I determined a lot of that length is added in the rear section. The most important length - making sure there is a straight path for the axles without any fore or rear bend - I am guessing this will take a little massaging. from the base of the firewall it should fit. however the firewall comes up at an angle. I may have to make it a little more upright or slightly slid forward - there are chassis bars behind there but nothing major so the top front of the engine won't hit. Oh and on the back - there's a whole trunk there. I am going with the assumption i might have to build a "hump" in there to fit the trans, but I'm keeping the trunk. I am not using the stock 360 exhaust that requires all that space in the middle center up high. Height - well this determines the very tall plenums with their variable intake runners. I would to not have to make a custom engine lid - if I do, I have a good design in mind in the spirit of Gandini. but height is dependent on width, too. Width - mainly frame rail width. If I can sink this thing between the rails and lower the whole unit, it is not only good for performance but also packaging. If I can lower it enough but not protrude the rails to keep the pan safe, it will get the plenum below the lid, I hope. It will be close. I may have to re-locate some bolt on parts, especially the alternator. I liked how @smg2 relocated their alternator on up in the "V" some of Nick's 308 builds. I will do something similar. I can also not use the 360 engine mounts and fab something custom. I would like to get away from a ferrari engine mount to something more generic and strong but still rubber for isolation - i have been studying American mounts that will be in production forever and cost 1/10th. I will post more on this next. I have a bunch of diagrams and stuff! Also a whole project plan to post. There were a lot of areas to research and potential blockers I had to prove theoretically before moving forward.
I did post in the 360 forum and nobody answered. HOWEVER (in facetious tone), they do know how to talk about their "spec", exhaust and sticky buttons - not so much a technical group like us. and yes, we are all getting better looking!
Thank you! I am not sure how compatible they are. the 355 unit does look compact. However the dry sump system for the 360 uses part of the transmission as the oil tank, they are designed to work together. The 360 trans was manufactured by Graziano and is built like a tank. I believe the internals and setup are very similar to the R8 and Gallardo, which handle up to 1K horsepower with the turbo kits. I am sticking NA and would love to get close to half that. I have already figured out the manual conversion without using the available kits.
Why not? Machine a spline drive to bolt to the back of the crank and it's the same bellhousing pattern.
OK, but the shift rod may be an issue. Like Spencer said, where would the oil tank go? There is also an oil feed between the gearbox and the engine at the bottom that needs accommodation.
You would have to make sure the flywheel / clutch aligns properly, there are sensors / mounts for the trigger wheel, and then architect an external dry sump system for the oil. Also, there is a heat exchanger on the 360 motor where the coolant temp regulates the trans oil temp - it works - thus the trans would likely needs its own cooling setup. Then there's figuring out the shifting, which I've already done. It just means more work. I'm not saying it can't be done, but if I had the choice where two lego's fit together or I have to go 3d design and print a 12 custom legos to make it all work, why not get the two that are meant to be together. The project started on the basis I didn't want to build a bespoke engine. I have enough weird things to figure out. Part of this all is all the downstream things that need to be changed... Theres a lot, which is why I've been working on this for about 7 months in studying and and buying parts.
F355 trans, F355 oil pan, spline drive adapter. Shift rod no problem with F355 oil pan. Custom reluctor. Sounds easier to do that than cut the car in half but if the desire is to use the 360 trans I'm sure that can be done as well.
Axles can angle fore and aft some. No reason not to as long as suspension travel does not make them exceed total max angularity. Height of engine. The runners of the intake manifold can be shortened some if needed. Cut in middle and weld back together. I doubt the frame rails are closer than GTO or F40 and they both have alternators and A/C tucked next to block. They were smaller Delcos and tucked in tight like 355. Infact a 355 mount and alternator may be the answer. I might have dimensions somewhere on frame rail spacing of one of those two, Actually different frame but 355 dimension will give you same information. GTO and F40 both have a bulged firewall for water pump and water pipe clearance. You might consider eliminating the rear seat like was an option in Europe and opening up the firewall if the structure allows it and making a panel like GTO/F40
Everything I have read about axles not being dead center leads to lift / squat characteristics on accell / decel. I might be able to use the higher pivot mount from the existing setup and swing it up/out and run a longer belt. I will look at the 355 mount. I do have one of the original luggage shelf cars, so it will be easier to modify and retain a similar look. I can either tilt the back straight up or slide the back a little forward. I would ideally like to make the back of the parcel shelf removable for engine / belt access.
its a yes but..... There is a force, it is not zero when the axles are off center. If you are up/down it kind of doesn't matter as the reaction is trying to move the suspension front/back and it can't move in that direction nothing. When the misalignment is front/back the reaction in the suspension is up/down which is not idle.....but for modest error, the reaction is awfully small. In a stock 308 it's about 1" right from the factory and it does nothing I've ever seen anyone complaining about. At 3-4 in you'd probably notice it but I'm not certain you would.... but for sure you would need to really look at suspension travel to be sure the CV are not binding with so much of their motion already used up. The CV wear rate goes up and hp rating goes down as offset is increased. I say just do the best you can and it will be fine, no need to obsess on it topic.
New video posted: Hello All - Lots of slow work but few updates. As a "solo practitioner" with full time job and side hustle I have dedicated to time on weekends to make progress. I am still breaking everything down getting ready for the 308 power train to be pulled, which I have only done on one car before. I was doing the shift shaft seals before and measuring to make my own oil baffle before the project took a different direction with the new powertrain. There were lots of thought that went into this - more than in the video but I was looking at the measurements of everything before buying. I scoured the fchat and internet for answers. I was able to find one document buried deep in google images that was on some other marque's forum site. It looks like a factory document and is all in millimeters. I did my best to read and format. so I could get under the car and see if everything would fit before purchasing the Tipo F131 engine and trans: Image Unavailable, Please Login It would be interesting if such a document existed for the F106 or 3x8 variant. If you have something, It would be good to share for the group. My main concern all along has been matching the diff positioning with the standard 308 location and the plenum height being lower than the engine deck lid. Also I want to make sure the length from the front of engine to the back of the dry sump oil tank doesn't cut into the trunk, but that is obviously something I could fabricate myself out of but would prefer not to. Per @Rifledriver 's note above - given the width of the frame rails, and the longitudinal nature, width of the lower case is less of a concern. I want to make sure I imagine the rear trans case will be positioned like a 288, tucked under the tail. I want to use the 360 factory mounting equipment - two diagonal / vertical loading on engine mounts that can be fabricated on the engine and one hanging mount on the top of the trans and a pin mount through the bottom rear of the trans. Here are some rough measurements I came up with to move forward (I need to complete this but I have actual measurements on paper): Image Unavailable, Please Login It was good for me to post this because It was in June/July when I started it. You have no idea how much I researched... Funny thing was when i actually received the motor, the dimensions on the actual f131 engine/trans were actually slightly less. But I should complete my own chart!. I also learned making videos is time consuming. In the videos, I say what I am doing, but not sharing the actual work. The work takes so much longer and is filled with trials and tribulations... I am not going to really improve the quality. I need to keep them easy to make and less produced to make more. I have enough content to kick out a couple more vids in the next couple weeks. I want to keep them manageable and consumable so I have some broken up days / jobs. I need to film more actual work... perhaps the more time-lapse. All shot on iphone btw. So I am more vids to come. I also need to share my project plan. Thank you @tobygaff for the quick ratio steering parts!!!! Cheers! Spencer
Yep, actually making the videos is a whole lot of work and extraordinarily time consuming. My friend Greg and I have our YouTube site channel for DIY/Automotive Lifestyle stuff, but he's WAY more active on it than I am. Of course, my car is out of commission so I've found myself with very little to talk about lately. Plus, if you try to film all the work you do, and narrate at the same time, it makes your job take a whole lot longer. I shoot on my iPhone, but I also picked up a DJI Osmo Pocket 3, so I use whichever is easiest at the time. https://www.youtube.com/@tiafogarage
It would be difficult because most of the length on the GT4 is in the rear chassis. The shorter wheelbase and overall length of 360 drivetrain would probably poke far out of the rear. Think of the extra size added to the 288 GTO. HOWEVER, as @smg2 stated above, it might be possible to mate to the 308 transmission. You would have to remove the 360 tall intake plenum. But heck - there's a V12 on a 308 transmission. time, money, skill - anything is possible!
