360 Heat Exchanger - Advice Needed

Unfortunately my 360 is about to receive its fourth heat exchanger.

The first, #175913, lasted until 47,000km
The second, also #175913, until 57,400km
The third, #180846, which has now failed, until 65,000km.

The coolant and gearbox oil are changed annually and are both said to be compatible with copper, brass and solder.

I'm now thinking of trying the MOCAL FTC1, an after market alternative sold by Awitalian:

https://awitalian.com/product/heat-exchanger-180846.html/?srsltid=AfmBOora5sREb2aePDpItxUTYkACMZDAAGUZezTtQ0jWYH-JGLOXtt9p

Does anyone have any experience with the MOCAL heat exchanger? Any feedback would be welcomed.

With thanks.

 

I don't understand this...some heat exchangers last for decades. Mine, on my '99 (175913) had 55k miles on it before I changed it proactively. Are you 100% sure it's the heat exchanger and not another element to the cooling system?

 

What coolant and gear oil are you using ..just curious

 

Have a look at the water pump as may not be producing enough flow

 

Mike

Why would low flow ruin the heat exchange?

I would think there would be other signs of low flow like overheating etc

 

I have and it is currently in my car.
When I bought my "no record/history of any maintenance car" I took it to the shop and had the belts, tensioners, WP, heat exchanger and all fluids done proactively.
That was 10 years ago for the new heat exchanger.
I'm also anal about flushing the gearbox and coolant every 2 years.

Good luck

 

There is some incorrect information regarding the OEM 180846 filter; it has 61 tubes, arranged in concentric circles: 24 tubes, 18 tubes, 12 tubes, 6 tubes, 1 tube.

 

Considering it is only lasting a short time, makes me think about the flow rate, the pump might be pumping air and water. If i remember correctly the 360 tubes are soldered in at the end tube, no room for expansion etc.

 

I wasn’t aware the upgraded heat exchanger offered by AW Italian has been in production for that long. So yours is the 70 Tube version Made by Mocal?

 

Was offered by Daytona Fine Cars in Canada many years ago.
Not sure if it was custom built for them. That's where I got mine from.

I made a reference to it here back in 2015. Post # 123. After I check it out I purchased and had it installed.
https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/360-heat-exchanger-leak-gearbox-coolant.355457/page-5#post-143983756

 

@grtoz, unfortunately I don’t have anything constructive to offer, I’m just subscribing to see what information and advice comes from this thread. It’s surprising and kind of terrifying that you’ve had 3 heat exchanger failures, especially with such good routine maintenance. As an owner who lives in constant concern of a heat exchanger failure, I do have a few questions:

How did you catch it each time? Overheating? Loss of coolant? Seeing oil in coolant reservoir? Gearbox noise?

Did you catch it early enough each time to save the gearbox with multiple flushes?

Do you do all your own work, or is the same shop servicing it every time it’s failed?

Looking forward to hearing of a positive and lasting resolution for you. The only thing I can say is that it really feels like an additional factor must be in play to have 3 exchangers fail with such good preventative maintenance, unless you have a permanent black cloud over your car. And I sincerely hope that labor the case for you.

 

Thank you all very much for your responses.

It seems to me that for the gearbox oil and the coolant to mix the failure point has to be the heat exchanger. As to the root cause of this failure, that's still open to conjecture.

I'm interested in how a low flow water pump might contribute to these failures. There was no noticeable coolant temperature increase in the case of the last two failures and in any event pressure on the coolant side would, I expect, be limited by the header tank cap at 0.9bar (if I remember correctly) surely not enough to cause a mechanical breakdown.

The first failure was picked up by a sudden increase in the coolant temperature. The second when I checked to coolant level and this last time there was a little seepage of coolant from the overflow hose. I put this down to a failed header tank cap and bought a new one. When I went to fit it I saw the old one had an oil water emulsion underneath it, put my finger in the tank and it came out covered in slime.

The gear box oil is Penrite Pro Gear 75w/90 and we are using Shell coolant specified for Ferrari 1979-2005. Each have been changed annually for the ten years I have had the car.

There was no noticeable damage from the first two failures. The first replacement was done by the Ferrari dealer who, presumably, simply took the old, superceded, #175913 of their parts shelf. The second replacement was with the "upgraded" #180846 by Enzotech, the gurus on all things 360 and F430.
I love this car and enjoy working on it, but I take it annually to Marc Jones at Enzotech because of his deep knowledge about 360s.

Thanks again

 

That’s crazy to me. I’ve never heard of that many failures in one car, period, Especially one that’s apparently maintained by the book.

 

A. I think we need to leave a bad water pump out of the conversation. It would cause symptoms, none of which are a failed heat exchanger.

I have had a number of clients with cars over 100,000 miles (miles, not kilometers) and I know of none of them that had had more than a single exchanger failure.
It is possible all the oil was not flushed out of the cooling system and the remains caused a false diagnosis? Getting all the oil out is the hardest and most time consuming part of the job.

I just cannot believe a car with 40,000 miles has had 4 failures unless something is being done wrong.

It would be far easier for me to believe it has a bad head gasket allowing oil in the coolant.
Either it is not being diagnosed correctly or it is not being repaired correctly.

 

What’s the minimum number of times you would expect to flush the cooling system before it started to finally come clean?

 

The more you talk, the less sense it makes.

 

Its not the number of times, its the methodology. Oil floats. Drains are on the bottom. If you wash then pull the plugs the oil sinks and coats the interior of the motor. Some oil comes out, Most stays inside. The oil needs to be sucked off the top just like a tanker spill in the ocean. It represents the biggest part of the bill.

 

Wow. I never knew or thought about that. I always assumed it was multiple flushes like the gearbox!

 

I just read this. I have seen many failures of heat exchangers and overheating was not one time a symptom.

Id be looking for head gasket issues. Makes a great deal more sense. It fits the symptoms. The exchanger does not.

 

Gearbox can be cleaned out in half an hour. Engine can take an entire day to be thorough.

 

I had a customers car that failed and he was completely unaware until the car failed to turn on the cooling fans due to low coolant. Never have I seen a mess like that. Rads removed and flushed. Water pump replaced, thermostat replaced, hoses, Gearbox survived amazingly enough. It was a horrible job to get clean.

 

Sounds like it’s well worth the price of admission to let the pros handle that kind of cleanup!!!

 

Thanks very much for your valued input Brian.

The coolant and gear oil were clear and unmixed before and between each of these incidents and the coolant level did not vary. The engine oil is clear with no hint of coolant.

If the problem is caused by head gasket issues would those issues not continue constantly and how would they lead to coolant in the gear oil and gear oil in the coolant?

 

If what you say is true then you are the only person in the world it has happened to. You decide which is more likely.

 

BTW @tbakowsky......... those were done by you at Cross Avenue. You did the clutch while at European Auto in 2017.
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