V-12 Engine into 308 Build, over on Grassroots

Shoot, challenge accepted. If the fellas at FormulaGT in Munich can get 420hp from a 3L QV race motor on 48IDFs then I bet they could work just fine on this beast. Your individual cylinder CC size is in the right window. That said, your injection getup in its current form looks the business, carbs would just be different, and granted wouldn’t make as much powa

 

carbs Are you trying to join rifledriver on the ignore list?

 

You are way too far down the rabbit hole for carb salvation. The ECU thing is really disappointing since it can create no end of imaginary rabbits to chase. What's the number for a Maxxecu......it looks like $3-4k? Also, did you find the source of the leak?

 

yeah, carbs are on the h3ll will freeze list

The pricing on maxx....I wonder. maxxUS is $2900 for the unit but the maxx site says 2500, but I just realized I can't order from them. maxxUS says 2900, a couple us sites list it for 2500.....just not sure. Also not sure what the connectors cost...$100? so somewhere between 2500 and 3100 I guess. You V8 guys can buy the race $1600-1900.

I could buy 2 of the sport @1350 each.....I guarantee the truth is the pro costs maybe 50% more to produce, in the $600-800 tops. The majority of the cost is the software and since its easier to work with 1 ecu than 2 so they charge over double for the same frikin software.. I find that annoying.

Oil leak? No, still leaks like a sieve...sometimes. I was hoping to get the tuning to 90% before pulling the engine to find the problem...that plan has failed. I'm probably fit the wheel wells then pull the engine.

 

Just got confirmation, a maxxecu pro is $2450 from https://shop.efi-motorsport.com/products/maxx-pro-ecu still waiting on connector set price

 

I am sure this is not the problem but not to leave a stone unturned, have you checked the compression on 9?

 

Its 180psi....all 12 are about the same, like 180+/-5

Today I'd mostly talked myself into trying a rusefi...the last couple nights I worked out a setup that I think would be fine with the thought that at least I'd be running again and if I hate it I could save for something else.....and tonight I got an email from the owner of enginelab responding to my from a couple weeks ago and asking if what the problem is and if they could help me get it fixed....getting it fixed would make me happy.

 

Hi All, Not a common poster on this thread but regular reader and just got caught up on the last few pages. I just bought and received my Haltech Nexus R5 for my project for which I'm about to announce in a separate thread - probably next week. I am still in my parts gathering phase but I'm pretty sure I have most of my theoretical work done and project plan and done with possible phases. I was encouraged by others to go motronic but I don't want to invest in expensive outdated technology that requires dependence on others. I still have to pull my 308 engine trans out but getting closer - hopefully next month.

I am not an engineer or techie or mechanic by trade. I did a lot of learning about ECU's and PDM's, CANBus and engine management and the many different systems in a car. Ultimately, I was down to two (Link G5) and chose the Haltech. It was a toss up for me but I wound up getting a great deal for NIB but second hand for under 3K. I think professionals would go with either. The pro's I spoke with recommend Link but they are looking at it from a business perspective. I like the Haltech because it seems to be designed and have the knowledge share built up for someone like me, a hobbyist. Each have their strengths and limitations.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Cheers,
Spencer

 

That is a great score for you, I'm jealous honestly

For me link fell off pretty quick as its not a 12/12 fuel/spark option and the final list ended up looking like this:

rusEFI huge - $825

maxxECU pro - $2600

Hlatech nexus5 - $4500 (could be $3500 by shopping globally)

All of these offer cheaper 8/8 fuel/spark versions maybe more appropriate for V8 setups, but the bigger version leaves more optional stuff available.

For me the top tier was Haltech, motec, bosch up in the bigger money group and its honestly not a competition, the Haltech is better at everything I'm interested in. If I throw a LOT of money at motec options it beats the haltech spec wise, but haltech has a better, easier to use interface, and in the $3500-$5000 price range easily wins feature wise. Bosch kind of starts at $6k so I saw no point in looking closer.

The one thing I didn't like about haltech was there is no Map/Baro load option whic is my go-to theses days. It can be sort/mostly of created by adding a 4th dimension to the Lambda target table which will work fine but is more work to setup.

 

I am totally speaking with little knowledge and trying to learn - at first I thought you were saying you couldn't load maps. But what I think you are saying is you want to be able to tune on MAP readings and Barometric Pressure in the manifold - am I correct? I may be wrong but here is an article on how to accomplish that with the nexus platform: https://support.haltech.com/portal/en/kb/articles/barometric-pressure

My understanding is you could actually take the multiple inputs from the MAF and the MAP sensors to give more data inputs to the ecu to generate more efficient and powerful combustion and outputs. It would coincide with having engine position inputs like both the crank and cam angle sensors feeding the computer with more data for better results, too. Is that what you were saying above?

 

and per getting the good deals - I am a scrutinous shopper. There is a Haltech buy sell trade group on facebook. I shop a lot of facebook marketplace. I scour ebay and try to take transactions off the platform to get reduced prices if I research the seller and take the chance they're trustworthy. I make "reasonable low ball" offers on ebay to see what I can get away with. I am willing to be patient unless I absolutely need something. I also do a lot of web searches with different terminology to get different results. You will be floored when you see what I have bought certain parts of my project for to save money but have the same results.

 

That article is just how to connect a baro sensor. Reading one and logging the data is no problem....actually using the output to control fuel is a problem.

In the haltech software there are basically 3 options for telling the ECU about engine load. There is an MAF mode, A TPS mode or a MAP mode and they should all work fine. The problem is that 1 sensor can't answer 2 questions. One question is how much air is going ot the engine? All 3 do that fine.

The second question is what is the driver's intent? are you cruising or trying to accelerate? With a axis table this ends up baked into the tuning. It works the same for all 3 option so I'll just explain with MAP load sense. WOT on a NA engine MAP =Baro (about) = 100kPa at sea level and you tune the mixture for full power. lets say and AFR of 13.5:1. Cruising lets say you see 70kPa (the exact numbers don't matter) and you tune for fuel efficiency and your AFR 14.7 (for E0). The region in-between goes from the 14.7 to 13.5.

Great.......but what happens when the baro changes because of weather or elevation changes? As you drive up a mountain to visit Denver lets say Baro goes from 100kPa to around 84kPa. When that happens the ECU is still calculating the air flow correctly but now thinks you want WOT mixture to be around 14.1, right in between the cruise 13.5 and WOT 14.7.....but you are are WOT and intended 14.7. At cruise you'll likely find yourself in the decel region and you mixture might be 17-18 AFR or you could enter the fuel cut region if you set that up. This is suboptimal behavior.

The simple solution here is to set the lambda table up with the load axis using MAP/Baro and this is what I was surprised to not find in the haltech software. The Haltech software allows you to add a 3rd axis to the lambda table so you could make that Baro and kind of shift the tuning info to the right cells so its not a deal breaker in any way, just a bit annoying because it makes extra work to set it up.

Facebook? oh the shame of it

 

I am surprised that baro correction is not built in. On my ECUBlack it is built in. My car is supercharged so I am using the onboard MAP sensor on the ECU. I have also pinned in a IAT and fuel pressure sensor because I added a fuel pressure regulator with a 1:1 boost reference. I am still learning. My map is very close to being done.
Your setup is way more complicated than mine. I hate to ask a nob question but…Since you have all those throttle body’s would a MAF sensor be better. That is if you could add baro correction?

Here’s a screen shot of my fuel table and baro correction table. I only speak lambda

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A side note they have new software out that makes some things easer and lessened the fiddle factor. I am putting off changing. I hear it’s better but this is the devil I know

 

A Baro correction table is a whole different thing and rarely used. Its to correct for the VE changing at different baro values and the haltech has that function.....it solves a different problem though.

Its kind of like in the maxecu I was surprised to find that the they do nothing with IAT in the main calculations, so you MUST use the IAT correction table to deal with the PV=nRT air density changes so it should never be empty. They guys don't have the MAP/Baro option either but they do allow the user to create a user function and then select that new function as the table axis so a bother but easy enough.

 

Here are the current options in ecumaster software, MAP/baro is on the list.

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I am on a What’s App group with a few guys in Europe we all have lotus running ECUMasters. One of the guys is switching over to the new client software, I am waiting to see what he thinks. He is much smarter then I.

What do you think of the new client software compared to ECU manufacturers you have looked at?

 

I think it looks good. Everything seemed to make sense to me, it looks like it displays all the needed info. Nothing about it was a turn-off. or red flag. I didn't play with everything but nothing about what I saw didn't scared me in any way....other than the fixed 17x17 tables, I don't like that too much. Also I didn't compare it to any older versions they once had. If loading new SW means you have to re-tune and engine that is already running fine I'm not sure why you would unless the old is no longer supported or something like that.

 

Some things like VE tables do, something don’t. That’s what I am waiting to see.

 

This was me misreading the help screen in the link G5 and not noticing a slider bar so I was only seeing the G4 info. The G5 can do 16 fuel and 8 spark or 12 fuel/12spark so I'll need to give it a closer look.

 

You should go for Link. We need a link expert to consult on this forum - I'm soon starting to Programme this baby

Best, Peter

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Short update. I did find a place that says they can probably repair my ecu so that remains an option but is plan B.

Plan a is I've agreed to be a beta tester for these guys https://****boxparts.com/ because I think what they are trying to do sounds awesome....an ECU that will do a V12 with I/O to spare for under $500. Aphla unit is running a car, beta build being laid out now and should be in my hands and a few others in a month or 2. Its using the rusefi open software but they are open to cleaning it up and are looking for suggestions and feedback for improvements so it should get more friendly.

Plan C is back to shopping

That means I really do need to get on with wheel wells and oil leak work.

 

And for when too much is just about right.....oh yes there is staged injection even on 12 cylinder engines. Way back I really wanted this but only the uber expensive motec M190 could do it.....now it's going into the $500 ECU and it will still have outputs left for other needs. This is going to be EPIC

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And 32x32 main tables just replaced the 16x16.....its so nice to have requests heard. Next up is make them dynamic so the user can resize them as needed hopefully because while I'd rather have too much than too little its really nice to have right size tables.

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I'm kind of running out of things to even ask for.

 

Map for each gear.
It's one thing I've always wanted, a way to track and map for each gear. The 308 gearbox really really needs this with bigger power engines. 3-5th loads and cruise are to close and power pulls thru 3rd overlap 5th cruise not under load.

Micro switches on a custom gate.. I'm sure there's other ways.

 

Doesn't link have 4D VE and fuel tables so you can make the 4th axis gear select? For sure the maxxecu let you use basically anything as an axis and I know has user math function or tables so it and also calculate gear and then use that for the 4th axis.

Many ecus have a gear select that is road speed v rpm to calculate drive ratio. I had that roughed and working in my EL ecu but wasn't yet using it for anything.

The limit so far on the rusefi stuff has been ram size. The newer chips have more but so far my understanding is they've stayed back compatible and that is a rule the new team is breaking so optimized for the chip they use and more speed and memory to play with.